Mr Tilak Pariyar is a
member of the Central Advisory Committee of the Communist Party of Nepal. He is
a very senior political leader from a revolutionary party with massive social
experience. Hailing from a Pariyar community, which is one of the largest
untouchable communities in Nepal, Tilakji rose to the highest body of the
party. He is very articulate and a thought-provoking political leader who
experienced the caste discrimination in his life. He was attached to the revolutionary
movement from his student life when he came to study in Delhi in 1960s. He was
impressed with the Marxist ideology and started working for the masses. In a
wide ranging discussion with activist-writer Vidya Bhushan Rawat on the issue
of caste discrimination in Nepal and future of the revolutionary movement in
the country, Tilak Pariyar spoke eloquently and in vivid details.
VB: Tilakji, you are the Central Committee member
of your party CPN. It is a great achievement
for any one as there are not many leaders from Dalit communities at the highest
echelons of the left movements in India. Could you elaborate how and when you
were included in the Central Committee?
TP: I
have been in Central Advisory Committee of Communist Party of Nepal-Maoist
since 2003, during the People's War and now I am acting as the Secretary of
that Committee since 2013. There is dialectical relation between ideology and
leadership. On the condition of the majority of the communists with the mixed
culture of Marxism and Brahmanism in our society, based on the caste system,
the development of the leadership for women and oppressed (Dalit) community is
challenging. The leaders developed from the Dalit community should be prepared
to work hard and satisfy others in the field of ideology and politics.
VB: Nepal has been a traditional society. Caste system
and untouchability is being practiced. Did you face anything like that in your
childhood? Have things changed ? If yes then how and who changed them?
TP: We
initiated the Great People's War with the aim of resolving the contradictions
of Nepalese society including political, economical and social ones. By the
initiation, Nepalese rulers declared to destroy the movement and finish the
Maoists, but failed. That was the result of the dedication of Maoist party
struggling to adopt the pro-people policy, solubility with the people, defense
of Nationalism and high morale to establish a democracy. During that
operation, the Dalits were backward in all sectors of life including economic,
political, and social due to upper caste insistence on a caste system with
untouchability, which had been going on since thousands of years against the
Dalit community. The Dalits were involved in the PW and fought against the
enemy. During the practice of proportional inclusiveness and special rights in
People's Government, People's Court and People's Liberation Army, the changes
over caste system and untouchability culture were among the base. It is
essential to run the campaign of economic, social, cultural transformation and
to extend it continuously.
VB: Could you
share with us the struggle that you had to do in your childhood? What kind of
caste discrimination did you face in your childhood?
TP: In the social structure of caste system and
untouchability culture, to take birth in the Dalit family means to face the
discrimination within the mother's womb. I was born in a very poor family. My
parents were ignorant and uneducated. They did have the courage to send me to
the school, but the teachers used to discriminate against me even in the school.
I couldn't drink the water fetched by the peon. I had to run to the water tap
to drink water. We were addressed with offensive words and physical hurt. I
have been struggling against it. My sharp understanding is that the Hindu
religious rituals are the origin of the Dalit problem which actually resulted
in the Hindu hegemonic oppression of Dalits. We boycotted temples and worshiping,
burned the Manusmriti and the books abusing the Dalits. Teachers beat me for
this but I kept on my dissent. My rebellious nature and progressive thinking
inspired me to be Marxist-Leninist-Maoist.
VB: You studied at
the Delhi University and then became part of revolutionary politics. How did
you get engaged to the left political ideology?
TP: I was impressed by the instructions of Com.
B.D.Randiwe, an Indian communist leader, when I was studying B.A. in Delhi
University and was doing part time job in 1964/65. Then I came in contact with
Com. Pusplal, the founder of Nepalese Communist Movement, through him and he
introduced me to the party. I am proud of my birth in the Dalit community. I
have observed that most of the leaders and cadres from non-dalit background
have shown an opportunist character.
VB: In Nepal
despite ideological differences people accept the role played by the Maoists in
bringing the Dalit issues to the core particularly the land relations in the
village. Unfortunately, the language and idioms that have been used by the
movement still avoid targeting the brahmanical value system which subjugated
the Dalits. Is it deliberate so that you do not lose the upper castes along
with you? It is important to use the Marxist terminology of class but
caste is a harsh reality too in our society. Have you ever given it a thought
that without eliminating the caste system, we can not bring equality in
society?
TP: You have asked an important question, it is
found true that Economics counts not only the relations of goods but the
relations of mankind too and especially between the classes. Caste system is
also a product of class divided society. Thus, the fact is roved that the
problem of caste system and untouchability is a form of class exploitation and
oppression. It is notable that the whole and parts have dialectical relation;
the whole gets completeness only after integrating several parts. To talk about
pure class liberation or pure Dalit liberation in isolation means to serve the
status-quo. Marxism has no relation with it. The dialectical materialist
outlook which understands and transforms the Dalit problem and the spiritualist
religious ideology which argues the development of the human society as the
wish of a god can't be the same. We can't identify the problem until we are not
clear on it. If we show recklessness to treat without the diagnosis, it has
risk for side effect or there won't be any efficacy. The cause of the
acceptance of Dalit agenda and the question of the land to the Maoists is based
on a clear outlook and has a correct political line. Humans need food, dwelling
and clothing before politics, cultural tradition, rituals, art, and
entertainment. We can operate all types of activities of social cultural
transformations on the foundation of them. Economic equality, assurances of
political access and social combination are integral parts of each other. It is
essential to understand it in totality.
VB: How important is Dr Baba Saheb Ambedkar for you and
your cadres? As you know Ambedkar now symbolises struggle for dignity and human
rights. His acceptance in social movements have transcended beyond India and
among huge number of people outside India. Nepal's Dalit movement is also
claiming his legacy now. What are the meeting points and where do you differ in
perceptions?
TP: Baba
Saheb Ambedkar is a respectable and honorable Dalit leader for me. His
important contributions to the Dalit movement are rememberable. He struggled
for the right to vote. He took a stand for separate electorate system for the
Dalits. But he felt obligated to leave it after Gandhi's fast. For the first
time in history, a person from the Dalit community was established as the
builder of a nation’s Constitution, the Indian Constitution. Despite these
contributions, he was not clear on the outlook to identify the problem. As the
result, he converted to Buddhism on the last moments of his life. I have a strong
view that proselytism can't be the right guidance for the liberation of Dalits.
VB: But Dalit representation in CA is merely 8%. In fact,
last CA was much better in terms of representation. Will it not be inadeqate
that without fair representation of Dalits in CA, it would somewhere lose its
legitimacy?
TP: The Article 21 of the Interim Constitution of
Nepal accepts the principle of proportional inclusiveness on the question of
social justice. The population of Dalits is 13.2% as the Governmental statistics
and 20% as per the Non-Governmental one. The number of total members of the
Constituent Assembly is 600. So, 78 Dalits as the Government or 120 Dalits as
the NGOs have the instinctive right to represent in the CA. But the
electoral system of First Past the Post and Mixed system of Proportional List
is adopted. Multi-candidate direct election system has made women and Dalits to
lose the election as per the system of competition among unequals. The same
thing was adopted during the CA election of 2007. At that time, with the influence of 10 years People's War and 19 days People's Movement, 7
Dalits had been elected from the direct election. That was 8.2%. Only 6.8%
Dalits are representatives to the so called CA recently. Parliamentarians are
active not only in reducing the representation of Dalits but also in dismissing
the representation by so called democratic process by vulgarizing the proportional
electoral system. The two-third majority of the CA of 2007 was pro-people and
now the so called CA has two-third majority who are anti-people. If they move
to the process, the past pro-people achievements will be thrown away and the
agenda of reconstruction of the state will surely be dismissed. That's why we
believe the CA election, occurred on 19th November, 2013, is without
legitimacy. If they are ready to make the Constitution
to authorize the people and to protect the national independence, it is
essential to make the national political consensus on the essence of the
constitution by organizing All Political Conference.
VB: Where is
Nepal's Dalit movement at the moment? We do not see much stronger struggle
against land rights and untouchability. Your party raised the issue but never
really challenged the brahmanical hegemony in Nepal. How can Nepal be a
representative and egalitarian society?
TP: The problems of right to land and freedom
from untouchability are complementary to each other. The New Democratic
revolution is inevitable to solve this problem in Nepal which contains the
situation of semi-feudalist and neo-colonial society. To defend the
nation’s independence and enrich the people with rights is the basic minimum
goal of the New Democratic revolution. In the past, we had entered into the
process of building equalized society by establishing people's government,
challenging the Bramhanical norms and hegemony. But the revolution suffered a
setback due to the reactionary forces, both foreign and domestic, and the class
and national capitulationist elements inside the party. It will take time to
prepare for the revolution but it is essential to organize the revolutionaries,
empower the internal side and balance the external powers. It is possible to
build an equalized society by forwarding the process of
unity-struggle-transformation.
VB: You have
differed with your original party led by comrade Prachanda. What were the
points of difference? He is trying to play an important role in democracy and
bring change through democracy. It is difficult to go back to the
pre-democratic positions after peace accord. If you do not participate in
democratic exercise, wouldn’t it be easier for your opponents to blame you for
not having people's support?
TP:
Prachanda has abandoned the political line of "People's insurrection on
the foundation of the People's War", which was passed by the plenum of
7000 cadres, and adopted the so-called socialist revolution saying that the New
Democratic revolution is over. This is the result of his ideological deviation.
How can one be the leader of the original party who had abandoned the official
line of the party? We have nothing to say if it is orginal by the recognition
of American and Indian ruling class.
VB: You claimed
that you will go for Janvidroh? How can you reassure the Dalits and minorities
that this Janvidroh has a place for them? How many of the Dalits are
represented in the highest body of parties in Nepal? I have no issue people
claiming to work for the Dalits but you can not sidetrack the issue of the
leadership emerging from the community.
TP: The question of the construction of a
revolutionary party cannot be answered by the method of proportional
representation. Dalits and backward classes are basic classes for the
revolution but all of them haven't developed a revolutionary leadership. Party
should prioritize the development of leaders from the basic classes and communities.
The leaders and cadres of the concerned communities should be clear
ideologically and theoretically. There are 14 Dalits at the central level
in our party. All of them are the comrades who had fought the 10 years People's
War and had achieved an ideological and political clarity. But the leadership
is not developing as expected. The People's War or an insurrection can't be
done by subjective method. These can be initiated by the plan-of-action line
and action-plan on the basis of concrete analysis of concrete circumstances and
other objective situations.
VB: What is the
socio-economic agenda that you want to set for Nepal? How do you propose to
bring equality in the society? Untouchability and other traditions like Kumari
and Baadi are still being practiced. There is manual scavenging (cleaning human
excreta) from Mehtar community but so far these issues have not come up for
discussions at the highest level. They have not become part of the public
discourse and Dalit movement.
TP: First of all,
these agenda can't be implemented for the interest of workers, peasants,
Dalits, women and the oppressed people without the establishment of a New
Democratic Republic. So, political revolution is
the essential precondition. After this, the socio-economic agenda, which
are related to solutions of the problems of nationality, democracy and people's
concerns, will achieve the desired importance and effectiveness. Our party says
that the interests and rights of workers, peasants, women, Dalits, indigenous
nationalities, Madheshis, Muslims, backward mass and national capitalist class.
It says the special rights to women; Dalits and Muslims community should be
arranged with compensation until the relative development on social, economic
and political equality is achieved. It also says the arrangement of right to
preference and assurance of representation to all organs of state power on the
basis of proportional inclusive theory should be managed. Our party wants to
develop federalism with the identity of oppressed ethnicity, construction and
development of independent national economy, termination of feudal land
ownership and revolutionary land reform, independent foreign policy, democratic
educational policy, democratic judicial system, resolution of basic problems of
people's concern including education, health, employment, food sovereignty and
residence as well as democratic and scientific culture.
On the question of solving the problem of Baadi, Mehtar
and Kumari customs, as you have mentioned are one of the problems of the entire
Dalit community. And it should be resolved by the process of ‘Unity, Struggle,
Transformation.’ Our party will give
these communities special priority within the provisions meant for Dalits.
VB: Do you support
political reservation for the Dalits which ofcourse, is there in your Constitution
but there is no reservation for the Dalits in the government services? Without
giving them enough representation in the government services, you can not really
do away with discrimination. What is your party's view on it?
TP: The genuine MLM communists don't believe in
the policy of reservation because it diverts the issue of proportional
participation of all sectors based on the population. This policy depends on
the mercy of rulers instead of our own rights. The policy of proportional representation
is correct in the form of rights. On the basis of theory of compensation for
the historical oppression since thousands of years, additional rights (Special
rights) should be given till the relative equality isn't established. These
rights can be increased or decreased on the basis of Human Development Index.
Because these rights are given to Dalits by deducting from the share of
non-Dalits, termination of untouchability and environment of social combination
would take place rapidly. The thematic committees of the now dissolved CA had
recommended the special rights for the new Constitution.
VB: Number of people
from different movements in India, are going to read your views. What is your
message to them? Do you believe Buddha, Marx and Ambedkar converge at certain
points and if we bring them together, a revolution will not be a dream but a reality?
TP: I would like to pass my message to all Indian
oppressed and justice loving people that the liberation movement will obtain the
necessary speed by moving ahead including the leadership of the MLM scientific
ideology and spiritual experiences of Buddha and Ambedkar. Main focus should be
given to the scientific ideology and rational outlook.
