“Gandhi and Ambedkar were both liberation theologists” : Anand Patwardhan

For over 40 years Anand Patwardhan’s documentary films have stood for freedom of expression. He faced censorship on numerous occasions, took the government to court, and won each time. Anand is not just a filmmaker but an activist in the cause of Indian democracy, clearly under threat today. In this candid conversation with Vidya Bhushan Rawat, Anand discusses his views on the challenges before us, and most importantly, how he perceives both Gandhi and Ambedkar as liberation theologists whose ideas are in danger of being revised by their enemies.

VB: As a freedom lover secularist what is the difference between today’s media and that which existed during the official Emergency in 1975.

AP: The Emergency of 1975 was visible to all. The world condemned it and in India some brave newspapers like the Indian Express protested with blank editorials. Within a fairly short time a strong resistance movement grew. Today’s Emergency is largely invisible to the masses because Indian media houses have been corporatized and these corporates, both Indian and foreign, are direct beneficiaries of an economic system that has been surreptitiously imposed on the country not just by the present regime but by forces that were already moving in the same direction but at a slower pace. We have sold our sovereignty to USA and the global corporates and people have been told that this is for our own good. The invisible Emergency of today depends on what Chomsky called “manufactured consent”.

VB: Today we face the biggest challenge to Indian democracy since independence when our civil liberties are under the attack, when freedom of expression is under threat and when media is constructing the 'news'. Is 'free media' now the biggest threat to democracy?

AP: The media is free in the sense that it now has the freedom to tell lies about both, the domestic economy and about national security - lies that parrot an American-Israeli-Saudi axis which created, nurtured and unleashed Al Qaeda and ISIS on the one hand and pretended to “fight terror” on the other.

VB: You have documented major events not only of communal violence but also of violence against Dalits in Maharashtra. After the death of Rohit Vemula, in HCU, JNU and other campuses, students of all ideological frames – from the Left, to Ambedkarites and other Bahujan groups, joined in a common struggle against the ABVP and its attempt to vitiate the climate in the universities. Today that unity appears to be crumbling and we are again at the cross roads. Why ?

AP: The fault lies as much with the Left (of all shades) which is still unclear about how to destroy the caste system within, as with Dalit groups that fall prey to red-baiting and exclusivist identity politics. On one side are traditional Marxists who were brought up to think that caste is part of a superstructure that will automatically wither away when the economic base becomes socialist. On the other side are those who think that the caste of your birth alone forever determines how you think and how you act. Not only is such thinking contrary to the teachings of Dr. Ambedkar, it mirrors the mindset of the worst Manuvadis who believe that caste determines everything.

Luckily reality is proving both positions wrong. I believe that the Left and Dalits are natural allies so it is a matter of time before a genuine, long-lasting unity is forged. People like Comrade Govind Pansare, Kanhaiya Kumar and Jignesh Mevani have shown us that this unity is possible. At HCU and JNU and across Indian campuses we saw the amazing potential of unity.  Into this mix I would add progressive Gandhians - people like Narendra Dabholkar and Medha Patkar. Together these forces represent the politics of Reason that this country so desperately needs.

VB: Your film Jai Bhim Comrade was an extraordinary work which brought us back the memories of the struggle for justice of the people of Ramabai Nagar in Mumbai. You screened the film in various places. What were the reactions?

AP: The film as you know took 14 years to make. In the winter of 2011 we screened it in the open air in Dalit bastis across urban Maharashtra. We bought a powerful video projector, made a huge foldable cloth screen, and in each basti erected bamboo scaffolding to mount it on. As the screen was being erected, we played progressive film songs and Dalit movement songs to alert and attract the audience. Often the crowd would swell to well over a 1000 people. As we could not afford so many chairs, people sat on the ground or stood at the back and on the sides for the three hour duration of the film. At the end of the screening we tried to organize a discussion but often instead of a back and forth question and answer session, people just grabbed the mike and poured their hearts out about what the film had meant to them. It was an overwhelming experience for me. Later I began to understand the reasons for this amazing response. Although in the bastis, little of the hardship shown in the film was unknown to people, the fact that the film presented its protagonists not as victims but as resisters, was a morale booster. The genre of music heard in the film was in danger of either dying out or getting commercialized, so the film, so full of these songs captured over decades, served as a valuable archive. Lastly the politics of the film was appreciated, as it did not pull punches. It called to task not only sections of the Left for not recognizing the primacy of caste, but also Dalit leaders who were being lured by Manuvadi Hindutva to betray the legacy of Dr. Ambedkar.

Much later I began to show the film in colleges and schools and other middle class and elite circles. Here the response was enthusiastic but very different from that in the bastis. Even though people generally appreciated the film, almost invariably someone would ask about the evils of “reservations”. It was as if the audience had been blind and deaf to what they had just seen. After 3000 years where manual scavenging has been reserved for one caste alone and education has been forbidden, was it not time to reserve education seats for the dispossessed? In the end after long discussions, we agreed that reservations could be done away with only when the children of the rich and the children of the poor start going to the same schools - from the primary to the college level. Such prolonged inter-caste, inter-class contact could also open the door for inter-caste marriages. Many generations of such mixed marriages could finally end the caste system. This sounds idealistic but in my view this is the only way to finally end caste - when bloodlines become so mixed that no one can clearly say what caste they come from.

VB: Do you think that as secular activists we have not been able to communicate to common people in the language they understand or have failed to use the great secular legacy of India which was radical and rational as well?

AP: In general this is true but in particular some people are genuinely trying to address this. Of course the task is huge and we are up against a fascist force in the Brahminist RSS that has created a hydra-headed, cadre based organization that indoctrinates people in the name of cultural and religious pride, as well as today, of fake nationalism. In the early days they attracted mainly Brahmins. Today they are drawing in all castes and tribes that can be mobilized against their stated three enemies - Muslims, Christians and Communists. Religious culture and right wing politics is a potent combination and we rationalists have so far failed to match the organizational genius that runs this fascist machine.

VB: This government has been in hyper-active mode to keep people busy but if we analyse their actions we find clear attempts to divide people and polarize the debate. It started with their favorite topics like 'Gaay', Ganga, Rastrawaad, beef, Jana Gana Mana and then to Kashmir. Things went horribly wrong in Kashmir and the last part was a surgical strike but that too was questioned. Then came demonetization which hurt the poorest of the poor but was dressed up to look like an attack on “black money” and the rich. Each act is commonly linked, in my opinion, to privatizing our national resources and creating business for crony capital.

AP: Yes there is a clear strategy. Nothing in the Hindutva Parivar happens ad hoc or without central planning. At the same time perhaps Modi and Amit Shah have surprised even their own cadre by their willingness to be brutal and dishonest. Demonetization is an example. Even the direct beneficiaries, like the crony capitalists who emptied the banks and refused to pay back their loans must have been surprised at how the poor were squeezed to fill the bank coffers up again and then sold the idea that this was a strike on the unscrupulous rich. Even when all the “black money” came back into the banks and became white money, no question was raised while thousands of jobs were lost across the nation. It may be the undoing of Modi in the long run but in the short term he is still fooling most of the people most of the time.

VB: Communalism or I would call it Brahminism has joined hands with capitalism here but the resistance too is stronger. Unfortunately, political parties are unable to join hands with their egos and brinkmanship for votes. Will people's pressure bring them together?

AP: At the moment there is no visible peoples’ pressure. There is visible suffering but the anger is not yet visible. Let us see if it manifests later.

VB: Do you feel that the Indian way of secularism i.e. equal respect to all religions, or what we call Sarva Dharma Samabhava is damaging the cause of social change as it allows religious dogmatics to hijack the leadership of different communities? There is a virtual competition between the religious right taking place in the polity thereby denying common persons of all communities the means to counter them. How do we respond to it?

AP: All over the world rationalists have found that religion that has existed for centuries is hard to stamp out and some form of co-existence is the norm in most secular countries. After the Soviet Revolution, St. Petersburgh became Leningrad but in 1991 it became St. Petersburgh again.

In India, both Gandhi and Ambedkar recognized that this country was so steeped in the idiom of religion that atheism or pure rationality would not be easily accepted by the masses. I consider Gandhi and Ambedkar, each in their own right, to be liberation theologists. Of course, Gandhi unlike Ambedkar, did not choose his own religion, he inherited it. But to whatever he inherited, he applied post-Enlightenment ethical values that were essentially modern. When he began to do manual scavenging and began to advocate this (even force it) on to his followers, he actually destroyed the very basis of the Pollution/Purity dichotomy that is at the heart of the caste system. Theoretically he for a long time infamously clung to the concept of Varnashram Dharma, but in actual deed he destroyed it the day he took up manual scavenging, a job that had been hitherto reserved for the so-called ‘untouchables’. As time went on Gandhi became ever more radical. He clearly learned from Dr. Ambedkar as well as from his own intuitive understanding of the world he was witnessing. For instance, towards the latter stages of his life, Gandhi refused to attend any marriage that was not an inter-caste marriage. By the end of his life he had fashioned out of his inherited Hinduism, something entirely new. Only the idiom remained, and not the original hierarchical Sanatan dharma. Whether his reluctance to discard the idiom was a practical decision that stemmed from a desire to remain in touch with the vast Indian masses in a language they could easily follow, or from his own inner belief system, is something that can be debated, but is of no great interest to me. What is unmistakable is that Gandhi’s ethical code bears little resemblance to the hierarchical and vengeful structure of traditional Hinduism.

Dr. Ambedkar in some ways was more fortunate than Gandhi in that he clearly saw how oppressive the religion of his birth was, being as he was, a direct victim of it. So he discarded it and searched for the best alternative to it. After examining many religions he finally chose the religion that was closest to Reason. Buddhism is the one world religion that does not posit an external, all-knowing God. However it has a very strong ethical core that Dr. Ambedkar highlighted. At the same time he discarded irrational and unproveable Buddhist tenets like Reincarnation that many traditional Buddhists ardently follow. This is why I see both Ambedkar and Gandhi as liberation theologists. In the same way that Left wing priests like Ernesto Cardenal in Latin America, a minister in Nicaragua’s revolutionary Sandinista government, re-interpreted Jesus Christ as a revolutionary who fought and died for justice to the poor and powerless, Gandhi and Ambedkar gave new ethical meaning to the religions they adopted and adapted.

Make no mistake that I am equating the two. Their differences are obvious. One came from a privileged caste, the other from the most oppressed. One was educated in a limited sense and steeped in traditional religion in his formative years while the other came from a caste denied the right to education and rose to become the best-read and easily the greatest intellectual of modern India.

I am not at all blind to the things about Gandhi that are paradoxical and irrational like his life-long demonization of sexuality.  Gandhi’s insistence on chastity puts him in the same irrational, patriarchal boat as the priests and monks and nuns of many world religions. To examine this aspect in depth would take a whole chapter. And yet this same sex-denying man, by introducing the Charkha as a weapon of non-violent resistance, brought thousands of women into the mainstream of the Indian freedom movement.   

I realize that I have let my stream of consciousness diverge from your original question. To get back to the issue about whether Sarva Dharma Samabhava can take the place of constitutionally guaranteed secular democratic rights, I think it cannot.  We need Dr. Ambedkar’s Constitution much more than we need holy books. And yet as many in our country are still hooked to holy books and unholy pretenders, we need liberation theologists who can help people to culturally discard the worst features of their inherited religious culture and replace these with ethical, just and non-exclusivist interpretations.

Waiting for everyone to become atheist or rationalist may take centuries. Ethics is the answer. Small wonder that Ambedkar and Gandhi, each in their own way, arrived at individual definitions of Ahimsa.

VB: In post-Mandal India communities are seeking their space in the polity. In the earlier phase of secularism the Indian elite always kept the marginalised communities like Dalits, OBCs, Muslims outside the gates of their decision making bodies and public platforms but things are changing now. Very unfortunately more than the seculars it is the communalists who are jumping into identity politics and social engineering. Meanwhile communist parties still retain their upper caste leadership. Will we be able to face the challenge in such a way?

AP: Actually identity politics is a double-edged weapon. As long as oppression of identifiable groups exists, it is perfectly legitimate for oppressed groups to unite according to their identity. “Black is beautiful’ was a necessary movement for Afro-Americans in the USA, just as pride in Dalit or Buddhist identity is necessary in India. The trouble begins when this turns into an exclusivist or separatist movement. Malcolm X went through a Black Muslim phase when he described all white people as “devils”. But in the latter stages of his life he completely rejected this theory for a much more inclusive critique of injustice and inequality. That is when the American deep State killed him. Similarly while a broad section of Dalits are inclusive and fully understand the distinction Dr. Ambedkar made between the ideology of Brahminism and individuals who happen to be born into one or the other “upper” castes, there is a tiny section of separatist Dalits today who see birth as the sole determining factor. The fact that Western post-modern academia encourages such identity politics in preference to class analysis has given this form of separatist politics international acceptance. Meanwhile in India Manuvadi forces feel obvious glee when Dalits attack the Left or Gandhi, as both have long been the enemies of Hindutva.

VB: Hindutva people are expert in appropriating icons who are secular. They used Ambedkar, Bhagat Singh, Vivekananda, Subhash Chandra Bose, Sri Narayan Guru etc for their purposes. Is this because an overdose of Gandhi and Nehru's role in our freedom struggle minimized all other icons that a kind of resentment began against Nehru and Gandhi?

AP: Frankly I am not a fan of Subhash Chandra Bose. I cannot swallow his alliance with Hitler and Hirohito. Freedom could not be wrested at such a cost. Vivekanand is also very troubling because he advocated a kind of machismo that I think is deeply problematic. Also what is little known about him is that he was deeply casteist. In fact he seems perfectly suited as a BJP icon. The resentment against Gandhi lies at the heart of the project of Hindutva which is why they killed him first and then attempted to appropriate his glasses and broomstick later. Nehru is hated because his development paradigm goes against the grain of privatization. Ambedkar they do not dare criticize openly these days so the only option is to use his image, minus any content.

VB: Your uncle Achyut Patwardhan was an icon of the socialist movement in India. We heard a lot about his relationship with Dr Baba Saheb Ambedkar. Was there any influence of him on your socio-political thoughts?

AP: Achyutkaka and Aruna Asaf Ali, according to British records, were amongst the most wanted underground leaders of 1942. He ran the underground radio and was a master of disguise amongst other things but in later years he ensured that history erased him. You hardly hear or read about him anywhere because soon after Independence he became disillusioned with mainstream politics. He did educational and social work but he would never discuss the past, even with me. He felt it had all been mostly an illusion. His elder brother, Purshottam (Raokaka to me) was also a freedom fighter and spent over 10 years in British jails. In the 1930’s while he was making an anti-communal speech, Madanlal Pahwa tried to assassinate him but was caught. Raokaka who was a Gandhian socialist, refused to file charges and Pahwa was let off. Later this same Pahwa threw a bomb at Gandhi and was part of the conspiracy that finally killed him.

To answer your next question, it is true that in the decade of the 1930’s Dr. Ambedkar spent several months living, writing and studying at our family farm home in Ahmednagar, but this again is a chapter of history that has been irretrievably lost. Raokaka like Achyut left active politics after Independence and both, by their own choice, were written out of history. I have heard that Dr. Ambedkar and Achyutkaka were friends and met when Achyutkaka was underground, but I have no documents about this. What I do know is that my family opposed the caste system and many married outside their own caste, including my parents.

VB: You have always tried to bring together not only left and Ambedkarites but also what you call 'Progressive Gandhians'. Why are you using this term ? You have been critical of people who as you say 'blow out of proportion' the differences between Gandhi and Ambedkar. Many of the Ambedkarites feel it quite disturbing?

AP: I must speak the truth as I see it. I have always felt that the affinities between Gandhi and Ambedkar are greater than their differences. They were both egalitarian humanists at heart. It may not win me any popularity contest today but I think those who are ready to set prejudice aside and undertake a proper historical study will come around to this point of view. Take the act of “Satyagraha”, a term coined by Gandhi. Ambedkar used this very term and form of struggle to launch his Mahad Satyagraha to claim drinking water rights. There are many other examples of common ideas and action. I was pleasantly shocked to read what Dr. Ambedkar had to say in 1932 immediately after concluding the now infamous Poona Pact (where the idea of separate electorates for Dalits was abandoned in favour of reserved seats for Dalits). Popular theory is that Ambedkar was blackmailed by Gandhi’s fast-unto-death into accepting a bitter compromise. But Ambedkar’s statement in 1932 after signing the pact was totally different in tone. He had high praise for Gandhi and stated that the “Mahatma” (yes, contrary to popular belief, Ambedkar referred to Gandhi as “Mahatma” at this point in time) offered a much better deal for Dalits in terms of reserved seats than Ambedkar himself had asked or hoped for. There is no denying however that Ambedkar did get disgusted with the Congress in later years. How much of the blame for the failures of Congress are attributable to Gandhi is a matter of discussion and debate. We know that Gandhi’s writ did not work in preventing Partition or the bloodshed that preceded and followed it and that Gandhi did not attend the Independence Day flag hoisting at the Red Fort in Delhi. He was busy fighting the communal inferno in the countryside.

Gandhi had a lot of obscurantist ideas to start with but as time went on he was honest enough to keep evolving. In the end I see him as a great humanist who died for his belief in non-violence and religious universality. He was also an inventive anti-Imperialist (though in his earlier days he had supported the British Empire) and an organic naturalist that today’s madly consumerist, globally warmed world desperately needs. Are most of today’s Gandhians like that?  Of course not. That is why I used the term ‘progressive Gandhians’. It describes dedicated non-violent fighters like Medha Patkar, Narendra Dabholkar, the whole Baba Amte family, Asghar Ali Engineer, Sandeep Pande, S.P Udaykumar, Teesta Setalvad, Aruna Roy, Admiral Ramdas, and so many others. It certainly does not include government-fed Gandhians and those Gandhians who jump onto the Hindutva bandwagon as soon as it gathers steam. 

Throughout his life Dr. Ambedkar fought for reason and justice without resorting to violence. Today his followers, like the Ambedkar Students Association and Dr. Prakash Ambedkar are leading the resistance against religious and caste hatred. Against all odds Radhika and Raja Vemula (Rohith Vemula’s mother and brother) are continuing the fight for justice. With the rising spectre of intolerant authoritarianism, the time has come for all humanists, rationalists and fighters for social and economic justice to unite against the usurpers of our democracy and our history.

Uttar Pradesh : Time to think for a post poll scenario

By Vidya Bhushan Rawat

The UP political situation have brought sharp differences between yesterday's friend who have now becoming bitter foes. People are posting things on Facebook and whats app abusing their former comrades just because one is on the side of Samajwadi Party while other on the Bahujan Samaj Party. I will make certain observations with my own understanding of the two and the legacies they claim to inherit. BSP emerged from a big movement that late Kanshiram started by mobilising the grassroot Bahujan masses, though it was existed earlier too in the form of splintered Ambedkarite followers all over the country. BAMSCEF that time was more an organisation for social change which look the society from very understanding of an Ambedkarite thought. The Samajwadi Party inherited or claim to inherit Lohia legacy which talks of caste identities and their participation in political structure but also glamorised village economy. At the end of the day Lohia remained a staunch Gandhian and countered Nehru for his 'western' thought.

Both SP and BSP were the parties of late eighties in technical terms though Mr Mulayam Singh Yadav was leader of opposition in Uttar Pradesh and built up his party from the ground. Kanshiram Ji's work was more of developing a staunch cader on Ambedkarite political philosophy. He was able to give voice to all those people and communities which remained hitherto unrepresented in political structure. Unlike RPI in Maharastra which Baba Saheb wanted to be party of diverse groups, BSP was able to attract diverse Bahujan communities even though opponent blamed it party of one community. There may be some truth in it but then every party has a core constituency which is important to nurture and on the basis of that strength, you can build better alliances with like minded groups.

When Samajwadi Party came to power in UP in the last term, one of the jokes that they started was related to Ambedkar Park which was definitely not a good taste. Akhilesh Yadav changed the names of all the district that Ms Mayawati has done in the name of great saints and Bahujan leaders. That was the worst decision on his part. In fact Akhilesh threatened to demolish Ambedkar Part too. Akhilesh with all good intention has limited social understanding but probably he feel that in politics you need to be goody to all but why that goody not extended to Dalits. It was under Akhilesh government that the state government openly encouraged the anti reservationists to campaign against reservation in Promotion. It was a sad spectacle. When thousands of OBC students had conversed in Allahabad for their genuine demands, they were called to Lucknow and when the talks failed, they were chased by the police and brutally lathicharged.

As a person who has followed Mulayam Singh Yadav's politics, I had only described the alliance between SP-BSP in 1992 bemel as Mr Kanshiram came from radical Ambedkarite movement while Mulayam Singh Yadav's emerged from mainstream socialist politics which actually legitimised RSS in 1975, the first time when Janata experiment happened.. The faith in social justice is essential for any alliance and I personally feel that even the Mandal Report in Uttar Pradesh was not implemented properly. There are many OBCs who are absolutely landless and Mandal recommendations are not just for job quota but for land reforms too. What happened ? Nothing.

When Akhilesh broke away from his father and allied with Congress, I termed it pragmatic decision. Political decisions are pragmatic and for survival too. Akhilesh is young and he will need to invest more time in the politics of social justice too rather than commenting on BSP and Ms Mayawati in contemptuous way.

Intellectuals should speak openly. They cant be devotees. They have to speak up for society and inform those in power where they lack. The battle today in UP is of a great national importance. I would always wish Uttar Pradesh to go Tamilnadu way where two 'national'' brahmanical parties become redundant but at the same point of time, it is essential that we learn from Tamilnadu where the Dravidian politics actually marginalised the Dalits further.

Let me make it clear that Ram Mamanohar Lohia was a great political leader but whenever India's Bahujan masses look for socio cultural emancipation they will have to go to Ambedkar Phule and Periyar. It is here, I wish Akhilesh could have invested time to understand all these revolutionaries. When I am reading comments here on facebook, it pains me. Some say, we are Phulewadis and not Ambedkarites. How is this possible ? Every Ambedkarite is a Phulewadi too. Every Ambedkarite is essentially a Buddhist too, not just in term of religion but in terms of philosophy. Some days back many çommentators'' wrote that Periyar, Phule and others are OBC icons and not Dalit warriors which may be technically true but who is carrying them further ? Who brought them to political discourse in Uttar Pradesh. The Janata Dal or the Samajwadis ? It is the BSP which brought to them in political discourse and that is essential. Uttar Pradesh need Ambedkar Phule and Periyar otherwise the brahmanical elite will always distort the political changes here.

Almost all the political parties somewhere allied with RSS and perhaps we have to differentiate when Congress was the main brahmanical party. But in today's context, it is essential to be unambiguous about our relationship with Hindutva when the Hindutva forces are up in arm using their 'saam-daam-dand-bheda'' to bring the manuwadi varna system. Akhilesh Yadav rarely spoke on violence against Dalits. He did not speak on Una incident. He had not time to see what was happening in JNU. It is important now for the Samajwadi Party, if it wish to look sincere to broaden its social base.

Miss Mayawati in recent years have been very vocal on these issues and was a welcome step from her earlier polity of isolation. She made it clear that in no way she is going to ally with BJP. Let us not bring history as every one has a history including Shyama Prasad Mukherjee, the founder of Hindu Maha Sabha, being member of Nehru cabinet and prior to that part of Muslim League Ministry, in Bengal under Fazal-ul Haq. So politics many time need associations and links but in today's time you can not be an opportunist in the name of running the government when the country has seen Hindutva's hate propaganda and anti people activities.

The attempt to put Lohia against Ambedkar must be condemned as done by many. I met many of those who knew it that Dr Lohia was in constant touch with Dr Ambedkar. It is open secret that Lohia Admired Ambedkar a lot and wanted him the leader of opposition and both were working for building up a party that represent India's wider oppressed masses. In fact, I am told, Dr Lohia was supposed to be joining the Republican Party of India when it was to be formed. Unfortunately, the demise of Dr Ambedkar left the entire legacy in bad hands and RPI became one community party which Baba Saheb never wanted. On December 5th, 1956 Dr Ambedkar had written two letters to veteran socialist leader N G Gore and Atre. He was in touch with Mr S M Joshi too to form a bigger alliance against the Congress Party which was the main political party during those years. Obviously, if Baba Saheb and Lohia were alive today, they would have joined hand to defeat the communal fascist forces represented by the Hindutva forces. The anti congressism of 1950s and 1960s is not valid today when the Hindutva's brahmanical forces have unleashed their anti people propaganda so ruthlessly.

Friends, political parties will not implement the socio cultural agenda that we wish. They have to be part of the political structure and we can only use their good will in propagating things and also getting things done.It is the social movement which force them to do so. Be part of these movements that compel political leaders to listen to them. While there is no doubt that BSP will have to improve its working and Ms Mayawati will have to be more accessible to people, it is time we understand that SP and BSP are rivals in Uttar Pradesh hence there is bound to happen some bitterness among their fans but those who call themselves íntellectuals' and activists have to come out of this fan mania and think of a larger perspective. I hope the rivalry does not give the brahmanical manipulators chance to blackmail them in the aftermath of the elections. People in constituencies know who is better and who is not. Uttar Pradesh will vote on community lines as it is happening and I must say, there is only one wave in Uttar Pradesh which is against #notebandi and Narendra Modi. We hope people give the BJP a good lesson.

Uttar Pradesh can bring huge political change in political history of India. That time has come now. Can the Bahujan forces respond to it positively ? Remember 21st century is that of Baba Saheb Ambedkar's enlightened vision which is meant for all Indian across diverse communities as it has ways and means to overcome hurdles and built an egalitarian society. Those who want to put Ambedkar into a particular category do a great damage to his tremendous work to unite India and its havenots. Hope people will understand it in the greater interest of strengthening Bahujan movement in India

Political battles can only be fought on Programme based Agenda : L R Balley

Vidya Bhushan Rawat in Conversation with L R Balley, Founder Editor, Bhim Patrika, Jallandhar

Lahori Ram Balley is one of the doyens of Ambedkarites missionary journalism in India. Based in Jalandhar, L R Balley started Bhim Patrika in Urdu first immediately after the passing away of Dr Baba Saheb Ambedkar leaving his government job in Delhi. Bhim Patrika became voice of Ambedkarites all over the country once it started publishing in Punjabi, Hindi and English and to do this tedious work, Balley Saheb did not have a very big dedicated staff. Even today at the ripe age of 86 years, he constantly work and suggest that working for the mission of Baba Saheb Ambedkar is his life, his soul, his breath. This interview was recorded at his office cum home in Jalandhar last year in August 2015 and is available on  http://peoplesvoice.in/2016/04/18/conversation-l-r-balley/    and I am now placing it for record through my liberal translation of the conversation for a large segment of non Hindi speaking people.

VB : Balley Saheb, when did you start Bhim Patrika and what inspired you to do the same.

LRB : I along with K C Surekh started it initially. Actually, Surekh who was General Secretary, Scheduled Caste Federation in 1946 used to bring out Ujala, an Urdu weakly which due to certain reason was closed as Sulekh went to the government job in 1952 so there was no newspaper as such for us. In September 1958, I started initially in Urdu, then in Punjabi and English and finally in Hindi since 1965.. We decided to use word Bhim from Baba Saheb’s name Bhim Rao Ambedkar to start the Patrika, a magazine devoted to Dr Ambedkar’s mission.

 VB : What was its circulation when you started it. What were your struggles in establishing it particularly financially as well as trying to get volunteers for it?

LRB: In 1957 general elections were called out. I belonged to Navashahar which is now a district in Punjab. I along with Bhaiya Saheb Yashwant Ambedkar jointly toured Punjab during this period and fielded candidates for Scheduled Caste Federation. RPI had not yet started though the resolution had already been passed on September 30^th, 1956 at 26 Alipur Road, New Delhi, Baba Saheb’s residence till his Mahaparinirwan. Hence when we went in campaigning during the elections, we addressed public meetings. Krishna Kumar who later became Krishna Kumar Bodhi and belonged to my native place had come to hear the speech of Baba Saheb’s son, liked my speech very much. He was a businessman and tried to find out about me antecedents and he finally came to meet me and asked me whether you want to live or run away. I had left my government job because the last time when I met Baba Saheb Ambedkar on September 30^th, 1956, he was very ill that time. I made a promise to him that Baba Saheb, I will spread that mission and ideology till the end of life which you have worked all your life. So it was basically inspiration by Krishna Kumar that I started the paper.

VB : Did you have any thought in mind that Baba Saheb won’t live for long ?

LRB: Yes, I felt so. After the meeting of Scheduled Caste Federation, he was seated in the verandah for fresh air. He fainted. So he was brought in and was put on oxygen for some time along with medication. I had been sitting there on a chair for many hours. When he got well, then I promised him. I was in the government service that time. I was not the member of Scheduled Caste Federation working committee but Dr Bhagya Singh was the new chairman of Scheduled Caste Federation in Punjab and I went along with him to introduce him to Baba Saheb. I was sitting outside as I was not in the meeting but this is the thing after the meeting. I was sitting on the chair and later went in and was there for long. On 6^th December 1956 when Baba Saheb got Mahaparinirvana, I was in the government job, a permanent employee in the P & T department and got deposited one month’s salary as desired according to service conditions, left the job and started working. I told Krishna Kumar that I am going to stay. Where will I go? He asked me to start a paper. Krishna Kumar inspired me to start the paper. He was not a Dalit. He belonged to Khatri, an upper caste, president of Arya Samaj, a big businessman of shoes and cloths. His family had many shops. He started supporting us. We started Bhim Patrika in Urdu.

VB : How much was circulation

Initially one thousand in Urdu, in Punjabi it was two thousand. People in Punjab don’t read much but we made it live. I did not know Hindi. I knew Urdu and Persian. In 1965 there was a Morcha and I was vice chairman of the action committee of. I was the first one to be arrested on December 6^th, 1964 along with my wife, daughter and son in Delhi. Magistrate asked my children but my wife said we will also go along with. I was in Jail for 70 days.

VB :What were the charges and what were your demands.

LRB :There was no charges as we were arrested during the agitation. In February 1965, we got released. Our demand were nationalized bank, redistribute land, statue of Baba Saheb in Parliament, fulfill the reservation of SC ST in government jobs and many others like this.

VB : These were important demands which are not on the agenda of many of the Ambedkarites!

LRB : I have not only produced literature but also cadre. I placed people on work. There is a basti near railway station, there are 250 homes from Maharastra who had bad habits. I got them loan from bank on our personal guarantee. I never believed in speeches alone. I wanted people to make stronger on economic as well as in thoughts too. Land Reform is important.

 On June 15^th, 1964, about 101 cadres of RPI came out on cycle to move towards Delhi for putting our demand to the Prime Minister. We used to eat Rotis on provided by people in the villages. In Seven days we reached Delhi to meet Lal Bahadur Shastri who had just become prime minister. He has just arrived. Our demand was that evacuee land be given to landless Dalits. We were given space in news. We met Shastri ji. He said you have come but go back to your town after ‘touring’ the city. We told him that we have not come here for that. Then, I went to meet Ram Manohar Lohia. He said I don’t go to the PM but would send someone. After some time Shastri invited Chief Minister Comrade Ram Kishan and then the government allotted evacuee land to millions of landless scheduled castes.  About 300 acres of land was allotted with my assistance to scheduled castes in Punjab in our city. Elsewhere many people actually got huge land against which a commission of inquiry was set up. So for us, it was work for the people that was more important.

VB: How did you come to Baba Saheb’s ideology?

LRB: My uncle was a qualified Doctor, a Hakim. He was educated. He was the president of Nagar Palika i.e. Municipality of Nawashahar. He used to get a of literary magazines and journals. I was fond of reading particularly Magazines and journals published in Urdu by Jat Pat Todak Mandal’s Sant Ram’s BA, in which lot of writings of Baba Saheb used to get published. I came to know about Baba Saheb through them. My uncle was member of the reception committee to receive Baba Saheb Ambedkar. Political leaders used to visit our family. My family was kind of reformed one and I can give them credit for what I am but later I studied a lot. I read each word of Baba Saheb.

VB: You met Sant Ram BA, President of Jat Pat Todak Mandal who became famous or infamous with his differences of Dr Ambedkar. What do you think about him?

LRB: He was basically a writer. He was an open mind person. He was a BA that time. He was engaged in farming and put animal bones as fertilizer. I used to meet him. His village was Purani Basi, Hoshiarpur. Basically, he was writer. He wrote over 200 books in his credit. He was a great translator. One of his finest translation was ‘’How to win friends’’ was translated in Hindi.

VB : The speech that Ambedkar wrote for Jaat Pad Todak Mandal as chair was never delivered because Sant Ram BA wanted to change some of its text. Did you ever discuss those issues related to Baba Saheb Ambedkar? Did he ever regret that Dr Ambedkar was unable to speak there?

LRB: Actually, things are not that simple. It is in the same book these things are there. Jat Pat Todal Mandal has most of the Arya Samajis. Sant Ram BA was an Arya Samaji who consider Vedas as the sole authority. In his speech, Dr Ambedkar speech, he writes, free youth from the thralldom of scriptures. Now, for all the Arya Samajis, Vedas are sacrosanct and hence they felt offended. Har Bhagwan, who was a student in Christian college, wrote to Baba Saheb for amending his presidential address. It was not Sant Ram BA but Har Bhagwan who wanted Baba Saheb to amend his speech.

It was Sant Ram who introduced Baba Saheb through his paper particularly to Urdu speaking people. When Baba Saheb married again in 1948, Sant Ram went to meet Baba Saheb. Their relations were never strained.

VB: Arya Samaj has a lot of influence in Punjab, Western UP, and Haryana. We feel whereever Arya Samaj has bigger influence, the attack on dalits are very high.

LRB : It is not Arya Samaj. We can’t say so. It is basically landed communities which are aggressive against Dalits. Arya Samaj was formed by Dayanand Saraswati. Arya Samaj was revived by Swami Shraddhanand ji. He was from Punjab only. His actual name was Munsi Ram. Bhagat Singh’s uncle Kishan Singh was an Arya Samaji. We are creation of Arya Samaj. They used to put us in Schools. They used to give children wash in handpump. They never believed in untouchability.

I don’t believe that Arya Samajis are attacking Dalits. Now as education is commercialized so has Arya Samajis. Read letters of Sant Ram BA and Swami Shraddhanand to Gandhi. They are very critical of Gandhi.

VB: You created a movement. You build RPI and Scheduled Castes Federation. Why Dalits could not influce Punjab politics?

LRB: After 1990s politics is changed. Politics after emergency was different. In 1967, we had two ministers in the coalition government of Gurunam Singh in Punjab . We had one minister with Charan Singh’s government in Uttar Pradesh. We resolved many economic issues. What we are witnessing in Doaba is the results of our work.

VB: The economic status of Dalits in Punjab is better than any other state. Gujarat  too is a powerful state but condition in Punjab are better. Is it because Sikkhism ?

LRB: Dalits in Punjab are powerful. If we are beaten up, we will also give them back but Sikkhism is the biggest problem. In Malwa the condition of Dalits is very bad. They don’t even have Pagadi. Malwa had old Riasats, like Patiala. So the caste system in the old Raja Razwadas is worst.

VB: How do you look at Ambedkarite movement in India today?  Its Strength and weaknesses.

LRB: When I started working in 1956. It was too risky to take Dr Ambedkar’s name. I have over 50 cases on me to rush me here and there. Even today, I have a case on me through my book ‘’Rangeela Gandhi’’. I had to give 20 lakh as bond, Ten lakh in cash as FD and 10 lakh property. Only then, I was given passport and that too for one year.

VB: What was there in Rangeela Gandhi that our government was afraid of it.

LRB: They banned it in Rajasthan. Here another book of mine ‘Hinduism ‘dharma or Kalank’ was banned.  I spoke in Jammu that Vedas contained nothing but forgery’. It offended some and they filed case against me under J & K. It was a historical speech of Baba Saheb on September 24^th, 1944 that he spoke in Madras. I was taken from Jalandhar to Jammu to appear in the court. I know how difficult it was and how I survived.

VB: So you are facing from that day. Now everybody is afraid of Ambedkar.

LRB: Those were the years we were not allowed to organize meeting. That is our success that we have pushed Ambedkar so much that even the opponents are shouting slogan of Ambedkar. It is a success. But we never compromised on our principles.

VB: This is an important point.

LRB: I am simple person. I always felt like an ordinary citizen.

India’s intellectuals are dishonest. If you want to clarify please read Baba Saheb’s book, ‘The Untouchable’. There is a difference between an educated man, who is loyal to his caste, his community and sectarian cause, an intellectual die for his ideology. Our educated people, we can’t call them intellectual, continue to compromise.

VB : You were committed people, who kept the name of Baba Saheb alive. You have done a lot of work. Brought out so many volumes like you and Bhagwan Das. Today, many parties have been formed of Dalits..leaders. You are saying that our leaders are purchased. Our parties are compromising.

LRB: I was in Delhi. I saw a car, written on a car plate was Republican of India, formed by Baba Saheb.  It belonged to Ramdas Athawale, now a member of Rajya Sabha with the help of BJP and demonstrating in Delhi. What is it for? In 1966 RPI decided to ally with Congress. I resigned from the party opposing it. I contested 1967 under RPI Ambedkarite. We formed in Lucknow and fought elections all over the country. I contested against Swarn Singh, defence minister of India. WE never compromised. Most of the members who went to Congress actually compromised. See Barrister B D Khobargade got power and position. When communist went with the Congress faced the same. Feudal parties actually purchase the leadership of the poor and have nots.

VB : All the Dalit parties compromised with BJP. We won’t be able to work without it. Too much idealistic, we will not be able to stand.

LRB: I am not suggesting idealism. Please stand for the basic issues of people. What is ideal? Baba Saheb said, academics are nothing in politics. But do practical politics. Practical politics made five year plans, constitution was made. In the constitution is written that the Scheduled caste commission will send its report to President and then President will forward it to Parliament but see how many reports are not sending by the President for discussion and our leaders don’t even raise the issue. President doesn’t send the report. Baba Saheb spoke on Scheduled Caste Commission. What is untouchability. This is mental twist and how can we resolve it. You go to Parliament with reserve seat. Talk about country, about community, about development. Baba Saheb wrote to his friend, ‘ Santosh parmodham’ which is basically from Dhammapada.  People don’t understand it.

VB: People’s politics has disappeared.

LRB: WE have done people’s politics. I don’t have an issue. My younger brother is in England since 1959. I can shift to England and Canada and yet at this age of 86 years of age I am still fighting here. Leadership must emerge from people. We introduced Baba Saheb through literature. We know there were not many books that time. Today, there are so many writers. Those who cant write letters have become writers. Those who can’t sing have become singers. The entire society is demoralized. Our own have become worst many time.

VB : There are good people coming from the community.

LRB : Look, we have fight with RSS. But we should understand that many of their people working on the ground. We differ with their ideology and programme but they are devoted to their cause. We need such devoted people here too.

VB: Political power is a master key. Don’t you think there is a brain drain. All want to get in to government job but does not want to work for the community.

LRB : I agree to some extent. There may be some uncertainity for youths but what about the retired people. Why cant they devote their time for society. Our Baldev ji give his time to the community after retirement.How many percent people are there English educated 2%. How many of the so-called people. 98% people are languishing in the villages.

VB : There is an inertia.. bad conditions, kind of helplessness or disappointment.

LRB: Land can never be Banjh or barren. People will come out of movement when frustration will increase. India is moving towards civil war. There is nothing like Parliament or assembly as they don’t discuss. Unemployment will increase. It will result in frustration and that will go for civil war. Frustration has not reached to a final level. Then people will start question their own leaders.

VB: I want to ask why cant we agitate for our own power. I am not a fan of Anna Hazare. Why are unable to revolt.

LRB : This is a huge country, a very diverse country. Our General Secretary was from Karnataka C M Aramugam. One man cannot cover the entire country. Even if I wish, I can’t cover the entire country though I tour Punjab regularly.

VB : So alliance has to be made. We will have to make alliance in politics.

LRB :I am clear about it. Whether good or bad, it is the communists who can be our partner.

VB: But many Ambedkarites question any move for an alliance with communists. The complain is that communism is the biggest defence of Brahmanism particularly in India.

LRB : This may be correct but what can do with repetition of these. Ambedkarite need to change their tactics and point of view. Dr Ambedkar was impressed with Soviet model of pro people work of the government. Ambedkarite and communists should form a charter of demand, a common minimum programme and prepare people for movement.

VB: Do you think that the politics of Narsimha Rao in post 1990s was anti people, anti Dalits.

LRB : He purchased all the MPs. It is an open secret.

VB :Don’t you think that we should revive the demand of Proportionate Electorate System (PES) ?

LRB : There is no benefit of saying for a separate electorate but for Proportionate Electorate Baba Saheb agreed. Minu Masani said it in the Constituent Assembly.I can agree to PES. Baba sahib has not agreed to reservation and separate electorate. He said cumulative system of voting. The present electoral system is wrong.

VB : This system is there to keep brahmanical elite alive. Using the contradiction of the poor, dalits and using their hatred against Muslims to get votes of other communities.

LRB : A question came that revolution has to come from the people. It can’t come from outside. China has taken half Pakistan. There will be a time when China will try do something here. What Maoists are doing is international support. It is not possible without international support.

VB : Do you agree with their movement.

LRB : It will be suppressed. To some extent, I am for them. You have not allowed anything. Conditions of desperations are there. Baba Saheb said in annihilation of caste. You have kept them ignorant. If they come to anybody’s hand, it will be dangerous for you. Today, the same thing happening. Others are controlling them.

VB: Issues of land, forest and water.

LRB: Gadhchiroli was our bigger center apart from Adilabad. I have seen those areas. there is a Lumbini nagar near Adilabad where we got settled about 500 acre land for scheduled castes.

VB : You were talking about Alliance. Now BAMSEF talking about Unity of the Moolniwasis.

LRB: It is all Bakwas. Unless there is an minimum economic programme. Alliance built on programme. It can’t happen on caste basis. What do you want to do.

VB :Do you think that the politics of identity will not work.

LRB: They are clerks. BAMSECF. They are sarkari naukers. They can’t do anything. I have been nauker for 9 years, I know what it is. What is Mool Niwasi. This thought is wrong. Baba Saheb said none has come out from outside. Annihiliation gives one hundred answers. Moolniwasi is nothing. It is for their developing own leadership. Brahmanism means, being irrational. Brahmanism means domination.Those who claim themselves leader. Do you eat meat? You eat everything but now beef. Why not? They can’t say clearly. If it is meat. It is meat. Those who claim to be Ambedkarite don’t understand Ambedkarism. They don’t want to walk Ambedkarism. They won’t want to understand. I have taken numerous journeys for parties. We have brought various volumes of Baba Saheb. Such 21 volumes are brought by me. See this, page 48. Mr D R Bhandarkar, foreign elements in the Hindu population has stated that,’ there is hardly a class or caste in India, which has not a foreign strain in it. There is an admixture of alien blood not among the Rajputs, Marathas but even among the lower classes.

VB: It means Baba Saheb has rejected Mulniwasi..

LRB: Alliance cannot be identity based. Identity is personal. These calculations do not work. Punjab’s SCs have more than 40. Two dominant communities are Churas and Chamars who do not want to come together. This exists everywhere. How identity will bring them together. Only programme, that too time bound, will take us further.

VB: Shouldn’t we bring leadership from those groups.

LRB: We have to bring leadership from the communities. We will have to declass and decaste but this leadership will only emerge from the movement, if you are fighting. Dalits are not fighting today. He loves life. Muslims learn to sacrifice. Dalits fear of dying. They will have to leave this.  You see, how many people were killed by Mao, Stalin.

VB: Do you think we will have to retaliate?

LRB: That is the only solution.  Baba Saheb in his speech named a Reddy who had over 4,200 acre of a village.  Volume three, volume five…there is nothing wrong in eliminating those who owned property and exploit people.

Baba Saheb says so.

VB : People will question it. They will say we have faith in parliamentary democracy.

LRB: We must move towards to revolution. What is the option?

VB: Has the Parliamentry democracy failed

LRB: Where is democracy? There is no democracy?

I give you Baba Saheb’s quotation from Volume III

Volume III: If a murderer can be killed because he killed a citizen, a soldier can be killed in a war because he belong to a hostile nation, why can’t a property owner be killed if his ownership leads miseries for rest of the humanity, there is no reason to make an exception in favor of the property owner why should one considered private property as sacrosanct.

VB: This is a very important statement by Baba Saheb.

LRB: Yes, you have seen it. I did not write it. It is Baba Saheb’s statement. In Buddha and Karl Marx.

VB: In the Buddha and Dhamma, he called equality with Fraternity.

LRB: He has a speech in Pune. In India parliamentary democracy bound to fail..

VB: Why.

LRB: Baba Saheb give five reasons for failure of democracy in India.

No loyalty to the constitution,

Not acting according to constitution

Lack of strong opposition,

Election system not fair

People are now aware

There after there will be anarchy and some sort of communism he said.

VB: You are prophesizing in terms of future that there will be anarchy.

LRB: It is anarchy.

VB: How do frustrated people get out of it.

LRB: I am not an astrologer. My thinking is that some leadership will come up.I have seen 1947 riots. Any person who was very coward he also took sword and killed people. It is mob violence.

VB: You are the most senior among Ambedkarite world over.. You brought that literature. I am seeing photograph of Bhagat Singh. They feel that Simon Commission came for Dalits and Bhagat Singh was opposed it. What do we get of violence?

LRB: Baba Saheb did not comment on it. Gandhi called him sirfira. My village is 3 miles of Bhagat Singh’s village. I have known to entire family. I have read him thoroughly. The first shaheed was an editor of Urdu paper. He was shot. About 98 people were hanged. Why is Bhagat Singh got so prominent? Bhagat Singh had a principle. The bomb that he threw, he said, that we did not want to take life of people. He never opposed Baba Saheb. Then he said I am atheist and socialists. Those who condemn Bhagat Singh are idiots. They don’t have the capacity to analyse.

VB: I want to hear from you. They said Bhagat Singh famed because of being Jat and not Udham Singh. They divided Kabir and Raidas too on caste lines.

LRB: See this is wrong. Some of the Bhangis said that Baba Saheb belonged to their community but we remain. We don’t worship individuals but ideologies. We don’t worship Bhagat Singh. He ideology was of Insaniyat. Baba Saheb’s ideology is also of insaniyat. That is common point.

VB: What is your message for people world over?

LRB: First read Baba Saheb correctly and then understand him. Be progressive radical. It means that our alliance can only be with those who are progressive. Hence take along with them. Bring common issues related to oppressed communities and develop a plan for movement. For movement, idealism is important, pragmatism is important. Movement cannot be on the basis of castes.  The first time SC word came into government of India. When constitution was passed he said that we should not form organisations based on castes. Caste cannot be a reliable point. You can’t fight a political battle on the basis of caste. There are more than 40 sub castes which we call communities. Every state has such communities. How will you unite them? None can do that not even SCF. It is time rise above caste. Take progressive views, with progressive programmes. It will be meaningful.

VB: Is annihilation of caste is still valid or not.

LRB: An experiment happened in Maharastra. Prakash Ambedkar made a front along with communist parties, peasant groups. I support it. We must take it to India.

Baba Saheb said, inter caste marriage, inter dining are important but the third thing people ignore. Make youngsters free from the enslavement of the religious scriptures. Our constitution permits us to be secular. Manusmriti is being published and promoted. Constitution is not working. Our biggest problem is contradiction.

VB :We are using constitution only when it is suitable for us.  The brahmanical forces are responsible.. but why those who should leave it, not leaving it.

LRB: All the progressive forces must demand fourth part to be implemented. We should not allow monopoly. The sources of Income must be spent for the benefit of the people. The fair implementation of directive principles of the state is the heart of constitution. Baba Saheb called it socialism. He defined it.

VB : At last, I want to ask you the mission of Bhim Patrika. You worked, saw dr Ambedkar. What after you.

LRB: There can’t be a second Bali. There can be better than me but not like Balley. I have prepared paper for building a Bhim Patrika Trust probably by December 2016. As long as my health permits, I will work. I can settle in Canada, in England and I can stay with my family but I will continue to fight for people’s right. I will go on doing that till my last. Baba Saheb’s mission is my life. There is no meaning to my life other than the mission of Baba Saheb Ambedkar.