Nepal : Is a revolution possible without dismantling brahmanical disorder ?

Understanding untouchability and castes question in Nepal

By Vidya Bhushan Rawat

As I started from Delhi to visit Kathmandu to participate in World Conference against Untouchability organized by International Humanist Union, London and Nepal Dalit Commission along with Society for Humanism in Nepal, the issues raised by one of respected Dalit rights activist Mr Hira Lal Vishwkarma’s assertion that manual scavenging does not exists in Nepal and that it is a lucrative business in Kathmandu. The statement was contradictory as it admitted that there is manual scavenging but what shocked me was his further emphasis that this work is now done by the Brahmin and Kshetris too as this has lots of money. In the conference I raised the issue and Mr Bishwkarma responded to it in the similar way as he had said in his response to a group mail circulated among the Dalit groups. Many of our friends working on manual scavenging in India were very disturbed with this as how come a person speak of such a language. During the conference, I had the opportunity to interact Hira Lal Bishwkarmaji and other friends and in the next few days, I decided to explore things further by meeting diverse groups of people and that too from different regions of Nepal. That apart, I tried to find it with the people in Kathmandu valley who are engaged in the sanitation work employed by the municipal corporation and government hospitals mostly. Most of the places, I found the output of the toilets are linked to local open nullah and just as you pour water, the entire excreta is flown into it. Most of the places it was stinky and dirty too. So, if not today, I feel Kathmandu city will have a dangerous situation if the sewage situation is not dealt with. Despite denial of people, one question that always haunted me as who clean toilets and latrines in Nepal ? If manual scavenging does not exists here, it means there is no caste system or the country has developed a fairly good sewage model on the lines of European countries only then there was a possibility of non existence of manual scavenging. On both the counts Nepal remain negative. The sewage system need to be seen and the caste system of brahmanical variety exists in Nepal in much stronger way than it is in India. It need to be understood and seen where it is not visible and why ? Ofcourse, Nepal is a very diverse country and caste system differ in forms and actions in each regions and hence all cant be put in the same bracket. Yet, I was never satisfied by the arguments that friends who suggested me, ‘ I should not look Nepal from Indian eyes and that they were different’.  As a person who has been visiting Nepal for long and love that country the issue of Dalits, discrimination and caste system can not be put aside simply under the nationalistic boundaries when the issue has become international and need people’s response. Yes, it is true that the ‘big’ brother attitude of Indians with their ready made solution would not work in Nepal and it is clear that they have to find answer within their national frame work satisfying the international laws too which speak against injustice and are for social justice.

For next two days, I decided to explore on my own and met a number of friends from hills, Tarai and Newari community and what transpired in our conversations was absolutely eyeopening and will definitely give a new direction to the movement for social justice and participation of various Dalit communities in nation building. These conversations of mine with Nepal Communist Party leader Mr Tilak Pariyar, leader from Dom community and now Central committee member of Naya Shakti Mrs Sunita Dom, Dalit activist from Tarai Mr Amar Lal Ram, activist from Badi Community Mr Gopal Nepali and a conversation with Deula community members engaged in sanitation work at the outskirts of Kathmandu will be put online soon and will definitely help create an understanding of the issue and take the discourse further.

 I visited Deula community locality in the Indraiani colony in the Maharajganj region of Kathmandu city to have a firsthand look to the issue, I was shocked to say the least. I thought that Hira Lal Vishwkarma ji is right because the houses were great and in much better place unlike India.  Over 25 families were living and each one had well established home of nearly three storied construction. Some of them had bigger than that. They claimed there was no untouchability with them when I asked pointed question. Most of them were working with municipality to clean roads, public toilets and hospitals. A government job provided them about NR 10,000 to 15,000 which they considered a better job option. I was a bit frustrated. At the town, I met a gentleman Mahadeb Deula who runs a public toilet at the Vasundhara chowk. The human excreta from his public conveniences is flown into the open drainage which stink all the time. Mahadeb pay NR Three Thousand for the contract and earn around NR 7000 a month. He has no issue with untouchability as he says he does not face it. We go along with him to his  Indraiani Colony of Deulas. Bheku Lal works with Mahanagar municipality and his day start from early morning at 5 am and finish at 8. Later he has to go again at 1 pm and finish at 6 pm. At this age of about 50 he gets about NR 16,000/- per month. Kanchi worked in Mahanagar Palika and now retired. Its not good work but they don’t get anything else says a young boy who is working in a hospital. He could not study after high school. Another girl Pushpa is a 9^th drop out and sit at home. I asked her as why she not pursued her study, she had no answer though the young boy of the community clearly mentioned that they do not get any other work.

What surprises me was while those I met (I do not deny they having political influence) did not utter much about untouchability and discrimination, yet the issue is whether they realize what is discrimination when they do not get any other work. Now they are complaining that the work is not there as mechanization is happening and work is being given to contractors. ‘It is a fact that the contractors are mostly the high caste Hindus as Dalits do not have that much of money. These high caste Hindus take the contract work and employ the untouchables to do the sanitation work like cleaning of septic tanks, roads and toilets. They extract huge money and pay the people lowly’, said Mr Tilak Pariyar who is the Central Committee Member of Nepal Communist Party (ML).

But Padam Bishwkarama, who is editor of monthly journal ‘Dalit Sandesh’ as well as valley coordinator of Dalit Liberation Front of Nepal, says that Nepal’s Dalit question need to be looked carefully according to regions. He feels that the Parliamentary system is never helpful to Dalits and it coopt them. He talks of revolution and unity of all the Dalits. According to Padam, Dalit question is not the issue of ‘Untouchability’ but that of participation at all level. Sometime the upper caste want to convert it into an untouchability issue which is wrong, says Padam Bishwkarma.

However Gopal Nepali, who belong to Badi community of Nepal and one of the most marginalized and outcaste community feel that when we speak of proportionate representation system, it cannot be just in the context of Dalits and non Dalits as we assume. He thunders, ‘Where is my space as a Badi with in the Dalit movements. Where are jobs for us in the government services, in Parliament or at the National Dalit Commission? They have formed a committee for the ‘welfare’ of Badis and therefore most of our friends feel that we do not need to have a space in the National Dalit Commission dominated by one or two communities’, he says.  

Actually, manual scavenging in the hills were carried out by the Deulas who are part of Newar community which has a tribal status. You cannot really understand the peculiarity of the issue if you feel that it is a Newar issue as many of them have now become economically well off.  Newar janjati itself has its own varna system and therefore Deulas among them are the sanitation workers. In the hills there was not much manual scavenging but the towns of the hills like Kathmandu has this community engaged in the work. There is a dire need to monitor the work in the smaller town.

In Nepal, the tragedy is that the issue of manual scavenging has not become dominant because the whole Dalit discourse is dominated by the hill people while communities such as Doms, Mushahars, Chamars, Mehatars, Halkhors, which are mostly based in the the Tarai or Madhesh regions remain outcastes with in the movement. The crisis of Hills verses plain has also helped to aggravate the issue. The cultural gap is big and need to cover up. As Kathmandu valley has dominant hill people and definitely manual scavenging in hills cannot be compared to that in the Tarai yet one cannot ignore the dark realities. I am not sure how great is the sewage system of Kathmandu and elsewhere but definitely people clean street, toilets and some day the septic tanks and as suggested by many earning a ‘good amount’ but definitely now with the machines coming up in the market, it has affected the job and bargaining powers of the community like Deulas as they only have the sole ‘monopoly’ over the sanitation work in Kathmandu. Now the contract work is taken by the powerful people who lease it to Deulas and make money at their cost and we feel that the community has gained a lot. When I tried to find out the reason of the community’s good housing, I was told that Deula’s had land from the very beginning and they had built these houses long back as the land belong to them. It would be difficult for any sanitation worker to construct those kind of houses in todays time when everything is so expensive and there is no security.

However, it would not be fair to blame to the social movements in Nepal, most of them dominated by caste Hindus who needed a few ‘Dalits’ to ‘showcase’ to their donors. As Mr Hira Lal Vishwkarma told me about a big organization working on Land Rights actually worked to ensure land for Brahmins and Kshatriyas in a village, in the name of ‘land reform’. It was shocking, said Hira Lal ji that when he found that Dalits and Janjati people did not get any land under the claim ‘land to the landless’. Perhaps, it is here we must realize the importance of the caste and merely citing ‘class’ will not work. Nothing wrong in helping the landless people of all the castes but then why ignore the Dalits in this entire ‘class’ exercise. One has to agree that the Dalit issue need to be understood beyond mere symbolism even though many times they are important particularly in the regions where they have been denied participation and right to be as a human being with dignity.  Of course, the Dalit movement needed as much variety and inclusion of the most marginalized communities which are victim of untouchability even with in the communities claim to be Dalits. These questions cannot be place under the carpet in the pretext of internal issues of the community or non-serious.

But can Dalit issue be just participation and not discrimination and untouchability. We do understand the political participation but what happens where Dalits are just a minority or that too of a miniscule variety whose voices do not get heard in the din of ‘majoritarian’ politics? So, it is not just issue of participation but an issue of human rights which has protection under all the international covenants. Participation of Dalits as proportionate to their population in polity and political structure is one issue but the issue of untouchability and those who are on the margins cannot be brushed aside under any pretext as Tilak Parihar says that the Communist Parties failed in it as the representation inside the party was a matter of great concern. He pointed out that though the revolutionary politics fought for the Dalit rights and fight against feudal oppression yet in terms of representation they failed the Dalits. He also said that parties failed to understand the Dalit issues and its complexity. ‘I was the member of the previously constituted ‘Constituent Assembly’ and have seen in those discussion that those who got elected in the name of Dalit communities only raised the issue of their communities and not others. Therefore, I never heard issues of Doms, manual scavengers or those of the Tarai Dalits, as majority of us were from the hills. It is our failure’, he says. Obviously, the issues of Dalits and Janjatis have to be resolved within the framework of Nepalese constitution and with maintaining the unity and integrity of the country. Last year an important leader of Dalits from Madhesh region visited Indian and tried to create an opinion about the Dalits in Nepal but now the Dalits in that region complain that the minister has forgotten the Dalits of other communities and only play his caste card.

Amar Lal Ram belong to Chamar community from Saptarni district of Madhesh region. The influence of Saint Raidas and Baba Saheb Ambedkar is now on the community. ‘The youngsters are going to school but participation in the job is very low. In the Tarai, it is the Paswans who dominate and they do not care for Dom, Chamars and Mehtars. In fact, 25 families of Doms face social-economic boycott from the Yadavas in the region who want these families to leave their homes and settle elsewhere’, says Amar. We too had an economic blockade several years back but now things are settled, he said. ‘Why is there a blockade’, I asked. ‘ We live in the towns or in the villages and when we do not follow their diktats they threaten us. Secondly, now with a little money, they feel we are obstacles and need to be thrown away so that they can live without seeing us or touching us.’ But is there any manual scavenging in your region and if yes who are engaged in it, I ask.  According to Amar, even after the government’s efforts, manual scavenging is there and mostly mehtars, halkhors and Doms are engaged in it. ‘ If there is any death of an animal, people will not pick up as they will only wait for a dom, he says and add that our pain is that while the upper castes have been willful against us but the powerful communities of Vishwkarmas and Parihars have taken our share as they are heavily present everywhere from government bodies to NGOs to IGOs. In fact, this sentiment is reflected by Gopal Nepali too who said that when the government appoint a committee and yes it is a committee he says not a commission yet it was not liked by dominant dalit leaders here. What do we get he says. As a person from Badi community which is less than forty thousands in Nepal, Gopal is the first person doing his M.Phil from Tribhavan University, says with pain visible on his face that we remain untouchables even today. Though, none know my caste in Kathmandu but if I inform any one about my caste that I belong to Badi community, I might not even get a house and people won’t even like to share space with me. Our pain is that our women and men were into music profession. They danced and yes the feudal exploited our women too. Later it became for all when there was no employment so many came in the prostitution and exploited by all. How Hippocratic it is that we are untouchables but there is no untouchability in sex. Yes, untouchability exists in our water, in our kitchens and at the marriages, he says painfully.

Addressing caste discrimination and untouchability questions are important to create an egalitarian society but it is important to handle them with great sensitivity. A solution which might be applicable in the hills might not be applicable in Tarai. The issue of Newari community is entirely different. Constitution of Nepal has recognized Dalit as an issue and as communities. Positive side is that constitutionally, they did not use the term ‘scheduled castes’ and scheduled tribes’ as in India but Dalits and Janjati which is positive as it will remind people of the historic wrong. Padam Bishwakarma is very clear about that when he says that Dalit question cannot be resolved unless we talk of honorable compensation for historical wrong done to us but do the revolutionary politics understand it, I ask. He says, yes, the only answer to discrimination against Dalit is the revolution against the feudal caste structure as Parliamentary democracy will not bring our true representatives and there the success of a few is shown as the model for all.

While Tilak Pariyar candidly understand that these brahmanical Marxist parties are not really Marxists as they fail to understand Dalit question and only talk of class when caste is an important factor of oppression in our society, Ms Sunita Dom, who is now in Nayi Shakti party of former prime minister Babu Ram Bhattarai, exposes the character of the ‘revolutionary’ parties when she said that her father being an important member of the Central Committee of the Maoist Party faced caste discrimination. It was sad that party leaders would not eat along with him and he was always served in a separate plate outside the dining hall. This is scathing attack on the brahmanical desease that exists inside these closed quarter of ‘revolutionary’ parties. I was shocked to hear this from a woman who hail from Dom community who are even untouchables among untouchables. Most of these parties have kept their door closed for the Dalits but as both Tilak Pariyar and Padam Bishwkarma mention that the revolution happened in Nepal because Dalits supported and participated in it. My point was that is great but why you need Dalits as rag pickers of your parties and not at the highest level. How come people are unable to come to the highest level despite sacrificing their lives.

Yet, it is also true that merely condemning the parties will not work. Nepal’s Dalit now look for change through revolution alone. Those who are ‘mainstreamed’ in NGOs and INGOs may have a few success stories while mainstream political parties busy with their vote calculations, Tilak Pariyar is simply not satisfied with the constitution. It talks a lot but gives nothing. For the 275 strong Parliament, 165 Members will come through First Past The Post system while rest 110 from Proportionate Electorate System. Now, most of the mainstream parties says that constitution is giving everything as per proportionate at every level (it is mentioned in the constitution and Nepal that way shows inclusive constitution but it has a long way to go) but there is no assurance of reservation or protection of seats for Dalits in FPTP as no seat is reserved for them. It means that a majority of seats would be open for manipulations during the elections and prone to encourage corrupt practices as happens in India. Among all this proportionate, how do we ensure that Badi, Gandharba, Chamars,Halhors, Doms, Mehtars and many other communities get their due. How will there be a representation of Deulas from among the powerful Newar community.

Nepal’s Dalits are separated from each other on regional lines. There might not have been any interaction with them and definitely the brahmanical political parties whether Congress variety or revolutionary one cannot escape from being blamed. As far as social movements is concern, the big INGOs have spoiled independent movement to grow and very unfortunate part is that upper caste still play patronizing role in ‘developing’ Dalit movement. We still here discussion similar to ‘return to Vedas’ of Vivekanada and that varna system was ‘scientific’ and was based on your work and not that of birth. People quote copiously from religious texts to prove that Vedas are sacrosanct and everything is a late entry. That shows the influence of Brahmanism on thoughts and process of politics, academia and society. While Ambedkar is reaching there yet being used in a very ‘limited’ way as both the revolutionaries and Congress variety of parties have realize the danger to the brahmanical order from a radical Ambedkarite movement. The oppression has been very high and people were made to believe that they are fighting a ‘class’ war and not a brahmanical caste oppression hence villages are isolated and deeply entrenched in caste system.

We would not like to give our solution to Nepal as it has to come from their communities and within the frame work of its constitution but unless Nepalese parties understand the whole issue of Dalits and their participation, things will not succeed. Nepal revolutionary politics will not succeed unless it understands the aspirations of those communities who have been denied their dignity and rights for centuries. In the 21^st century, Nepal need to show the world that in our continent revolution is not possible without smashing Brahmanism and the illegitimate social order that it has created to suppress the Bahujan working masses in our societies.

“The revolutionary people’s movement can only be strengthened with scientific temperament and spiritual experiences of Buddha and Ambedkar.” - Tilak Pariyar, Secretary, Central Advisory Committee, CPN-M

Mr Tilak Pariyar is a member of the Central Advisory Committee of the Communist Party of Nepal. He is a very senior political leader from a revolutionary party with massive social experience. Hailing from a Pariyar community, which is one of the largest untouchable communities in Nepal, Tilakji rose to the highest body of the party. He is very articulate and a thought-provoking political leader who experienced the caste discrimination in his life. He was attached to the revolutionary movement from his student life when he came to study in Delhi in 1960s. He was impressed with the Marxist ideology and started working for the masses. In a wide ranging discussion with activist-writer Vidya Bhushan Rawat on the issue of caste discrimination in Nepal and future of the revolutionary movement in the country, Tilak Pariyar spoke eloquently and in vivid details.

VB: Tilakji, you are the Central Committee member of your party CPN. It is a great        achievement for any one as there are not many leaders from Dalit communities at the highest echelons of the left movements in India. Could you elaborate how and when you were included in the Central Committee?

TP: I have been in Central Advisory Committee of Communist Party of Nepal-Maoist since 2003, during the People's War and now I am acting as the Secretary of that Committee since 2013. There is dialectical relation between ideology and leadership. On the condition of the majority of the communists with the mixed culture of Marxism and Brahmanism in our society, based on the caste system, the development of the leadership for women and oppressed (Dalit) community is challenging. The leaders developed from the Dalit community should be prepared to work hard and satisfy others in the field of ideology and politics.

VB: Nepal has been a traditional society. Caste system and untouchability is being practiced. Did you face anything like that in your childhood? Have things changed ? If yes then how and who changed them?

TP: We initiated the Great People's War with the aim of resolving the contradictions of Nepalese society including political, economical and social ones. By the initiation, Nepalese rulers declared to destroy the movement and finish the Maoists, but failed. That was the result of the dedication of Maoist party struggling to adopt the pro-people policy, solubility with the people, defense of Nationalism and high morale to establish a democracy. During that operation, the Dalits were backward in all sectors of life including economic, political, and social due to upper caste insistence on a caste system with untouchability, which had been going on since thousands of years against the Dalit community. The Dalits were involved in the PW and fought against the enemy. During the practice of proportional inclusiveness and special rights in People's Government, People's Court and People's Liberation Army, the changes over caste system and untouchability culture were among the base. It is essential to run the campaign of economic, social, cultural transformation and to extend it continuously.

VB:  Could you share with us the struggle that you had to do in your childhood? What kind of caste discrimination did you face in your childhood? 

TP:  In the social structure of caste system and untouchability culture, to take birth in the Dalit family means to face the discrimination within the mother's womb. I was born in a very poor family. My parents were ignorant and uneducated. They did have the courage to send me to the school, but the teachers used to discriminate against me even in the school. I couldn't drink the water fetched by the peon. I had to run to the water tap to drink water. We were addressed with offensive words and physical hurt. I have been struggling against it. My sharp understanding is that the Hindu religious rituals are the origin of the Dalit problem which actually resulted in the Hindu hegemonic oppression of Dalits. We boycotted temples and worshiping, burned the Manusmriti and the books abusing the Dalits. Teachers beat me for this but I kept on my dissent. My rebellious nature and progressive thinking inspired me to be Marxist-Leninist-Maoist.

VB:  You studied at the Delhi University and then became part of revolutionary politics. How did you get engaged to the left political ideology?

TP:  I was impressed by the instructions of Com. B.D.Randiwe, an Indian communist leader, when I was studying B.A. in Delhi University and was doing part time job in 1964/65. Then I came in contact with Com. Pusplal, the founder of Nepalese Communist Movement, through him and he introduced me to the party. I am proud of my birth in the Dalit community. I have observed that most of the leaders and cadres from non-dalit background have shown an opportunist character.

VB:  In Nepal despite ideological differences people accept the role played by the Maoists in bringing the Dalit issues to the core particularly the land relations in the village. Unfortunately, the language and idioms that have been used by the movement still avoid targeting the brahmanical value system which subjugated the Dalits. Is it deliberate so that you do not lose the upper castes along with you?  It is important to use the Marxist terminology of class but caste is a harsh reality too in our society. Have you ever given it a thought that without eliminating the caste system, we can not bring equality in society?

TP:  You have asked an important question, it is found true that Economics counts not only the relations of goods but the relations of mankind too and especially between the classes. Caste system is also a product of class divided society. Thus, the fact is roved that the problem of caste system and untouchability is a form of class exploitation and oppression. It is notable that the whole and parts have dialectical relation; the whole gets completeness only after integrating several parts. To talk about pure class liberation or pure Dalit liberation in isolation means to serve the status-quo. Marxism has no relation with it. The dialectical materialist outlook which understands and transforms the Dalit problem and the spiritualist religious ideology which argues the development of the human society as the wish of a god can't be the same. We can't identify the problem until we are not clear on it. If we show recklessness to treat without the diagnosis, it has risk for side effect or there won't be any efficacy. The cause of the acceptance of Dalit agenda and the question of the land to the Maoists is based on a clear outlook and has a correct political line. Humans need food, dwelling and clothing before politics, cultural tradition, rituals, art, and entertainment. We can operate all types of activities of social cultural transformations on the foundation of them. Economic equality, assurances of political access and social combination are integral parts of each other. It is essential to understand it in totality.

VB: How important is Dr Baba Saheb Ambedkar for you and your cadres? As you know Ambedkar now symbolises struggle for dignity and human rights. His acceptance in social movements have transcended beyond India and among huge number of people outside India. Nepal's Dalit movement is also claiming his legacy now. What are the meeting points and where do you differ in perceptions?

TP: Baba Saheb Ambedkar is a respectable and honorable Dalit leader for me. His important contributions to the Dalit movement are rememberable. He struggled for the right to vote. He took a stand for separate electorate system for the Dalits. But he felt obligated to leave it after Gandhi's fast. For the first time in history, a person from the Dalit community was established as the builder of a nation’s Constitution, the Indian Constitution. Despite these contributions, he was not clear on the outlook to identify the problem. As the result, he converted to Buddhism on the last moments of his life. I have a strong view that proselytism can't be the right guidance for the liberation of Dalits.

VB: But Dalit representation in CA is merely 8%. In fact, last CA was much better in terms of representation. Will it not be inadeqate that without fair representation of Dalits in CA, it would somewhere lose its legitimacy? 

TP:  The Article 21 of the Interim Constitution of Nepal accepts the principle of proportional inclusiveness on the question of social justice. The population of Dalits is 13.2% as the Governmental statistics and 20% as per the Non-Governmental one. The number of total members of the Constituent Assembly is 600. So, 78 Dalits as the Government or 120 Dalits as the NGOs have the instinctive right to represent in the CA. But the electoral system of First Past the Post and Mixed system of Proportional List is adopted. Multi-candidate direct election system has made women and Dalits to lose the election as per the system of competition among unequals. The same thing was adopted during the CA election of 2007. At that time, with the influence of 10 years People's War and 19 days People's Movement, 7 Dalits had been elected from the direct election. That was 8.2%. Only 6.8% Dalits are representatives to the so called CA recently. Parliamentarians are active not only in reducing the representation of Dalits but also in dismissing the representation by so called democratic process by vulgarizing the proportional electoral system. The two-third majority of the CA of 2007 was pro-people and now the so called CA has two-third majority who are anti-people. If they move to the process, the past pro-people achievements will be thrown away and the agenda of reconstruction of the state will surely be dismissed. That's why we believe the CA election, occurred on 19^th November, 2013, is without legitimacy. If they are ready to make the Constitution to authorize the people and to protect the national independence, it is essential to make the national political consensus on the essence of the constitution by organizing All Political Conference.

VB:  Where is Nepal's Dalit movement at the moment? We do not see much stronger struggle against land rights and untouchability. Your party raised the issue but never really challenged the brahmanical hegemony in Nepal. How can Nepal be a representative and egalitarian society?

TP:  The problems of right to land and freedom from untouchability are complementary to each other. The New Democratic revolution is inevitable to solve this problem in Nepal which contains the situation of semi-feudalist and neo-colonial society. To defend the nation’s independence and enrich the people with rights is the basic minimum goal of the New Democratic revolution. In the past, we had entered into the process of building equalized society by establishing people's government, challenging the Bramhanical norms and hegemony. But the revolution suffered a setback due to the reactionary forces, both foreign and domestic, and the class and national capitulationist elements inside the party. It will take time to prepare for the revolution but it is essential to organize the revolutionaries, empower the internal side and balance the external powers. It is possible to build an equalized society by forwarding the process of unity-struggle-transformation.

VB:  You have differed with your original party led by comrade Prachanda. What were the points of difference? He is trying to play an important role in democracy and bring change through democracy. It is difficult to go back to the pre-democratic positions after peace accord. If you do not participate in democratic exercise, wouldn’t it be easier for your opponents to blame you for not having people's support?

TP: Prachanda has abandoned the political line of "People's insurrection on the foundation of the People's War", which was passed by the plenum of 7000 cadres, and adopted the so-called socialist revolution saying that the New Democratic revolution is over. This is the result of his ideological deviation. How can one be the leader of the original party who had abandoned the official line of the party? We have nothing to say if it is orginal by the recognition of American and Indian ruling class.

VB:  You claimed that you will go for Janvidroh? How can you reassure the Dalits and minorities that this Janvidroh has a place for them? How many of the Dalits are represented in the highest body of parties in Nepal? I have no issue people claiming to work for the Dalits but you can not sidetrack the issue of the leadership emerging from the community.

TP:  The question of the construction of a revolutionary party cannot be answered by the method of proportional representation. Dalits and backward classes are basic classes for the revolution but all of them haven't developed a revolutionary leadership. Party should prioritize the development of leaders from the basic classes and communities. The leaders and cadres of the concerned communities should be clear ideologically and theoretically. There are 14 Dalits at the central level in our party. All of them are the comrades who had fought the 10 years People's War and had achieved an ideological and political clarity. But the leadership is not developing as expected. The People's War or an insurrection can't be done by subjective method. These can be initiated by the plan-of-action line and action-plan on the basis of concrete analysis of concrete circumstances and other objective situations.

VB:  What is the socio-economic agenda that you want to set for Nepal? How do you propose to bring equality in the society? Untouchability and other traditions like Kumari and Baadi are still being practiced. There is manual scavenging (cleaning human excreta) from Mehtar community but so far these issues have not come up for discussions at the highest level. They have not become part of the public discourse and Dalit movement. 

 TP: First of all, these agenda can't be implemented for the interest of workers, peasants, Dalits, women and the oppressed people without the establishment of a New Democratic Republic. So, political revolution is the essential precondition. After this, the socio-economic agenda, which are related to solutions of the problems of nationality, democracy and people's concerns, will achieve the desired importance and effectiveness. Our party says that the interests and rights of workers, peasants, women, Dalits, indigenous nationalities, Madheshis, Muslims, backward mass and national capitalist class. It says the special rights to women; Dalits and Muslims community should be arranged with compensation until the relative development on social, economic and political equality is achieved. It also says the arrangement of right to preference and assurance of representation to all organs of state power on the basis of proportional inclusive theory should be managed. Our party wants to develop federalism with the identity of oppressed ethnicity, construction and development of independent national economy, termination of feudal land ownership and revolutionary land reform, independent foreign policy, democratic educational policy, democratic judicial system, resolution of basic problems of people's concern including education, health, employment, food sovereignty and residence as well as democratic and scientific culture.

On the question of solving the problem of Baadi, Mehtar and Kumari customs, as you have mentioned are one of the problems of the entire Dalit community. And it should be resolved by the process of ‘Unity, Struggle, Transformation.’  Our party will give these communities special priority within the provisions meant for Dalits.

VB:  Do you support political reservation for the Dalits which ofcourse, is there in your Constitution but there is no reservation for the Dalits in the government services? Without giving them enough representation in the government services, you can not really do away with discrimination. What is your party's view on it?

TP:  The genuine MLM communists don't believe in the policy of reservation because it diverts the issue of proportional participation of all sectors based on the population. This policy depends on the mercy of rulers instead of our own rights. The policy of proportional representation is correct in the form of rights. On the basis of theory of compensation for the historical oppression since thousands of years, additional rights (Special rights) should be given till the relative equality isn't established. These rights can be increased or decreased on the basis of Human Development Index. Because these rights are given to Dalits by deducting from the share of non-Dalits, termination of untouchability and environment of social combination would take place rapidly. The thematic committees of the now dissolved CA had recommended the special rights for the new Constitution.

VB:  Number of people from different movements in India, are going to read your views. What is your message to them? Do you believe Buddha, Marx and Ambedkar converge at certain points and if we bring them together, a revolution will not be a dream but a reality?

              TP:  I would like to pass my message to all Indian oppressed and justice loving people that the liberation movement will obtain the necessary speed by moving ahead including the leadership of the MLM scientific ideology and spiritual experiences of Buddha and Ambedkar. Main focus should be given to the scientific ideology and rational outlook.

Ambedkar’s ideology is the only way for Dalit liberation in Nepal: Om Prakash Gahatraj

In conversation with Vidya Bhushan Rawat

Om Prakash Gahatraj is an encyclopedia of Ambedkarite movement in Nepal. I mentioned Ambedkarite movement particularly as he was associated with a vetran leader Mohan Lal Kapali who took Baba Saheb Ambedkar to various Dalit basties in Kathmandu when he visited there to attend the World Buddhist Conference in 1956.  He worked in different capacities with the government of Nepal to help them on various issues related to Dalits and their uplift.

                                                                                                                                          

          He is now engaged in Dalit movement of Nepal. He is also the Chief editor of “Pratinidhi” tri-monthly literary Dalit Magazine published in 80s. Writer of the Biography of Mr. Mohan Lal Kapali (Senior Leader of Dalit Movement) published by DNF/ESP. Published many articles in leading newspapers, journals etc. He spoke to Vidya Bhushan Rawat on various issues concerning the Ambedkarite Dalit movement in Nepal.

VB : You mentioned yesterday about the visit of Dr Ambedkar in 1956. It is interesting to see how the Nepali Dalit community welcomed Baba Saheb on his visit. I would like to listen from you a little more about this visit and who were the people who hosted him and which places did he visit. What did he advise to the people.

OM :   The Govt. of Nepal and Buddhist Group hosted Dr. Ambedkar. He visited Dalits areas (dwellings) specially Deopatan (Pasupati Temple Area), Sahagal (Lalitpur), Dhalku-Chettrapati( Kathmandu) and Bhaktapur. After looking the worst conditions of Dalits, he advised Dalits to go in struggle in large scale for emancipation from this condition.

VB : Where did he stay ? Who were the people who invited him ? 

OM:  The Govt. of Nepal and Buddhist Group invited Dr. Ambedkar  to play vital role to make success of Buddist Conference in Kathmandu on 1956. He stayed in Sital Nivas (Govt. Guest House- Presently President House).

VB: Baba Saheb redefined Buddhism in India. He felt it was the only way out for the emancipation of the untouchables. Did Buddhism play same emancipatory role in Nepal for untouchables or they have been culturally religiously remained Hindus. Is there any movement to carry this message of Baba Saheb in Nepal?

OM: As far I know no Buddhist did campaign in Nepal to emancipate Dalits from this caste based discrimination. They are remained religiously limited and very rarely they speak for equality in their religious speech. We social workers do movement to carry messages of Baba Saheb in Nepal. 

VB: According to your narratives of life of Mohan Lal Kapaliji, Baba Saheb also visited Pashupatinath temple. Are you sure of it? Is there any photograph available? What was his reaction to visit there?  Did he express his desire or it was the local community leaders who wanted him to go there.

OM:  The major area of Dalits was in Deopatan which is the area of Pasupati Temple. Formerly it was called Deopatan Area and now it is called Pasupati Area.  Dr. Ambedkar visited that area to see the condition of Dalits not to worship Pasupati Temple. On the way he saw Pasupati Temple being in the same locality of Dalits but did not worship. Even today there are thousands of Dalits living there. Neither the Dalit leaders wanted him to go there nor was his desire, it was on the way so he saw it.

VB: I can understand the pain Baba Saheb Ambedkar felt deeply disturbed on seeing the conditions of Dalits in Nepal. What was his initial reactions and what advise did he give to the people here. 

OM:  Dr. Ambedkar was angered with the behavior of Nepal Government towards Dalits of Nepal and said he was betrayed by the leaders of Nepal while talking in Delhi about Dalits of Nepal. After returning from the visit the leader of the team of Dalit leaders Mr. Saharsanath Kapali (Eldest brother of Mr. Mohan Lal Kapali) gave tea reception in honor of Baba Sahib at the Sital Nivas.  At the reception Baba Sahib called on Dalits of Nepal to go on struggle for rights.  

VB: You mentioned that Baba Saheb wanted to meet the prime minister but when the PM came to know about Dr Ambedkar's wish to meet him. He himself came to Sheetla Bhavan. Could you elaborate of that meeting? Did the PM give any particular assurance to Dr Ambedkar.

OM: I never mentioned that Baba Saheb wanted to meet the prime minister. When Baba Saheb visited Dalit Basti (Area) and saw the worst condition of Dalits, he became angered against the attitude of Nepal Govt. towards Dalits of Nepal. Seeing the anger mood of Baba Sahib, the liaison officer who was associated on behalf of Govt. in the visit reported the anger of Baba Saheb to the Prime Minister of Nepal (Mr. Tanka Prasad Acharya). After the return of Baba Saheb to the Guest House (Sital Nivas), Then Prime Minister Hon. Acharya invited Baba Saheb to his residence to talk about this matter. When Baba Saheb showed his reluctance to go in his residence, Hon Acharya himself came to the Sital Nivas and assured to Baba Saheb to give due attention to the development of Dalits.

VB: Where is Ambedkarite movement in Nepal ? What have been their achievements ? Could you share with us the role of Mohan Lal Kapali ji in promoting Ambedkarism and strengthening the Dalit movement in Nepal.

OM:  Ambedkarite movement is run by most of Dalit leaders not by non Dalits till now

in Nepal. Late Mr. Mohan Lal Kapali run Ambedkarite movement throughout his life in Nepal. We were also educated and informed about Baba Saheb from him. Now most of Dalit leaders in Nepal are convinced that Dr. Baba Saheb’s philosophy is only the way to get rid of caste based discrimination.

VB: What has the the civil society role in Nepal to eliminate discrimination against Dalit. Is there solidarity among various movements in Nepal with the cause of Dalit rights?

OM:  There is a little role of the civil society in Nepal to eliminate discrimination against Dalit. There is solidarity among various movements in Nepal with the cause of Dalit rights.  But most of the civil society organizations are led by Bramins so there is some problems to be done the work by heart.

VB: What is the status of Dalits in Nepal? Is there affirmative action on part of government for the Dalits in Nepal ?

OM:  No one Dalit is in the council of Ministers even today whereas Dalit’s population according to Govt. statistics is more than 13.2 %. Only one Dalit is Chief District Officer out of 75. Out of 601 Constituent Assembly members, only 41 Members are from Dalit community. There is less than one % Dalit recruitment in the Govt. civil service. There is very little affirmative action in the laws that too very poor implementation because all the top leaders of major political parties are Brahmins. They do not like to lose the existing opportunities of their families.

VB: Nepal has outlawed untouchability but discrimination against Dalits and practice of untouchability is prevalent. How does the government handle them? What is the role of NHRC and National Dalit Commission in all this. Do they have power to summon and dismiss the officials who are found violating the law of the land?

OM:  NHRC only can recommend to Govt to implement the laws. National Dalit Commission is not constitutional body so it has no power. It can only request to the concerned agency to provide justice. But the stakeholders so far are showing a deaf ear. The Govt. has assigned the job of over-throughing this problem to Dalits itself through National Dalit Commission and Dalit Development Committee. Non Dalits are not interested in this job.

VB:  How strong is the role of left organisations or parties in strengthening the Dalit movement in Nepal? Are they considered to be friend or allies? How do Ambedkarite organization, if there are any, consider them. What do you think has been the role of the Maoists in fighting for the rights of the Dalits in your country?

OM:  All they are using Dalits for their own and throw them into the garbage after use. This is reality. Most of the leaders of left parties also are Brahmins so it is easy to understand the reality.

 VB:  Are political parties ready to give fair representations in their structure or they still want to continue with patronizing attitude?

OM: They are giving very less representation to Dalits but not in decision making level in their parties to show inclusion to donors.

VB: What is the way out to eliminate caste discrimination and untouchability?

OM:  The only way out to eliminate caste based discrimination and untouchability is to follow Dr. Ambedkar’s philosophy “Be educated, Be organized and Do struggle”.