Ambedkar as a Human Rights Defender

By Vidya Bhushan Rawat


Universal Declaration of Human Rights signed on December 10th, 1948 and a majority of nations including the so-called imperial power, newly independent states, every one, agreed to certain principals of human life which would be guiding principals for the 20th century. But to say that human rights and struggle for human rights came into effect after Universal Declaration of Human Rights were signed, would be a negation of historical struggle for social reform and human rights right from Buddha to Thomas Paine to Jyoti Ba Phule, to Dr Bhim Rao Ambedkar. The struggle for human dignity and human rights are as old as the exploitation of human beings who some of ancient people termed as ‘lesser fortunate’. That clearly reflected a mindset, which justified everything in the name of religion, and customs hence exploited communities were termed as ‘unfortunate’.

Ambedkar was not only the son of a down trodden but a son of modernity and globlisation. I mean, had he not been educated at Columbia and then in the London School of Economics, he might have accepted the same ‘term’ of being ‘lesser fortunate’ or being ‘unfortunate’. Yet, education in United States and England showed him what exactly freedom was as he could mix with students of other countries and races. The feeling of humanness that he developed after facing torturous days of humiliation in India. came only after his stay in Europe and America. He did not confined to Indian social system but broaden his philosophy and ideas. Therefore Ambedkar is child of internationalism where scholarship is respected and acknowledged. While there is no need for me to explain Ambedkar’s understanding of human rights and international law.

Having faced the discrimination on the basis of his birth and understanding fully well that varna system of caste is not merely the issue untouchability but much beyond that Ambedkar clearly suggested that if Hindu Society has to improve it must be formed on the basis of equality, fraternity and liberty.

It is the greatness of the man and quintessentially humanist attitude that Ambedkar wanted not only challenge the Vedas and other holy texts but also change them according to modernity. It is here that he was thoroughly disgusted with Gandhi who mentioned that any one who does not believe in Shastras can not be a Hindu and that Shastras can not be changed. For Ambedkar human dignity and humanity was much bigger issue than any religion.

‘ We do not value Hinduism, we value human dignity.’ [Gore 1993: 97]. We want equal rights in the society. We will achieve them as far as possible while remaining within the Hindu fold or if necessary by kicking away this worthless Hindu identity.’[Ibid. 91] (Debrahmanising history pg.357

Ambedkar was a proponent of modernity and human right. Unlike Gandhi, he was a man of reason and good senses who was not prepared to submit to a tradition that defy human dignity and self respect. When Gandhi ask the Scavenger community to continue with their profession since it was based on their caste and that they would be serving it according to tradition, Ambedkar decried Gandhi.

“
If Gandhiism preached the rule of poverty for all and not merely for the shudra, the worst that could be said about it is that it is a mistaken idea. But why preach it as good for one class only? Why appeal to the worst of human failings, namely pride and vanity in order to make him voluntarily accept what on a rational basis he would resent as a cruel discrimination against him. What is the use of telling the scavenger that even a Brahmin is prepared to do the scavenging when it is clear that according to the Hindu Shastras and Hindu notions, even if a Brahmin did scavenging, he would never be subject to the disabilities of one who is born a scavenger? For, in India, a man is not a scavenger because of his work. He is a scavenger because of his birth, irrespective of the question whether he does scavenging or not. If Gandhisim preached that scavenging is a noble Profession, with the objective of inducing those who refuse to engage in it, one could understand it. But why appeal to scavengers pride and vanity in order to induce him and him only to keep on to scavenging by telling him that scavenging is a noble profession and that he need not be ashamed of it. To preach that poverty is good for Shudra and for none else, to preach that scavenging is good for the untouchables and for none else and to make them accept these onerous impositions as voluntary proposes of life, by appeal to their failings is an outrage and a cruel joke on the helpless classes which none but Mr Gandhi can perpetrate with equanimity and impunity.
(BAWS-9-292-3)


Then came the historical occasion for Ambedkar to enter into a debate on the issue of caste and Varna with Gandhi on his writings in ‘ Harijan’. Gandhi as usual considered himself an expert on every subject, from theology to spirituality. Unfortunately, his ridiculous religious beliefs that any one who did not believe in Varna or caste cannot be a true Hindu were stronger enough to compel Ambedkar think for alternative to Hinduism. None of the Gandhian questioned his fanciful ideas. In fact some of them went on to support Gandhi and chided others. Indian media is full of such jokers who have nothing to do with Gandhi and yet they are ready to exploit Gandhi and his upper caste Indian dream. Gandhi’s retrogressive views on caste were well exposed in his debate on the issue with Ambedkar.

“If caste and Varna are convertible (interchangeable) terms and if Varna is an integral part of shastras which define Hinduism. I do not know how a person who rejects caste i.e. Varna, can call himself a Hindu”. 59. (Annihilation of caste by Dr B.R. Ambedkar)

For Ambedkar such orthodox views by a leader who considered him not only awaking the political people of India but soul of India, came as a shock. His famous remark followed this: “ Though I am born as a Hindu, I shall not die as a Hindu’. Ambedkar therefore considered emancipation of Dalits as more important to freedom of India, which he felt was a mere transfer of power to the upper caste Hindus which could be detrimental to the interest of Dalits in India.


Rights of Women

Ambedkar was a great votary of women’s emancipation. He believed that the Varna system has not only subjugated Untouchables but also women.

It would however be a mistake to suppose that only the wrongs of men are a religion to him. For the Brahmin has given his support to the worst wrongs that women have suffered from in any part of the world. Widows were burnt alive as suttees. Widows were never allowed to remarry. The record of Brahmins as law givers for the Shudras, for the untouchables and for the women is blackest as compared with the record of the intellectual classes in other parts of the world. For, no intellectual class has prostituted its intelligence to invent a philosophy to keep his uneducated countrymen in a perpetual state of ignorance and poverty as the Brahmins have done in India.

(Baba Saheb Ambedkar’s Writings and Speeches: Volume-9 page 215-216


There can be no doubt that there has been an utter down fall in position of women in India from what it was once was. One cannot say much about the part they played in ancient time in the state craft. But there is no doubt they did occupy a very high position in the intellectual and social life of the country.

He questioned Manu and Manu Smriti and felt it was solely responsible for the down and fall of Hindu woman.

‘ It is the nature of women to seduce man in this world. For that reason the wise are never unguarded in the company of females.


In fact Ambedkar resigned from Nehru’s cabinet after the Hindu Code Bill could not be passed as visualized. His fight for the right of the women for divorce was opposed fiercely in the Parliament by not only the right wing Hindus like Shyama Prasad Mukharje but also like Dr Rajendra Prasad and K D Malviya. He was thoroughly dejected because of Nehru’s failure to get the bill passed.


Campaign for Civil Rights


In November 1932 Ambedkar wrote to A.V.Thakkar, known as Thakkar Bappa, General Secretary of anti untouchability League. Ambedkar and Thakkar Bapa did not go together. Even when Thakkar Bapa asked for the opinion of Dr Ambedkar on various matters yet the following advise given by Dr Ambedkar was not even acknowledged. I am quoting this important letter of Ambedkar and Thakkar Bapa to give you a direct understanding of how Ambedkar was a true champion of human rights and he took the battle of Dalits and untouchability from the perspective of human rights.

‘ I think the first thing that the league should undertake is a campaign all over India to secure the depressed classes the enjoyment of their civic rights such as taking water from the village wells, entry in the village schools, admission to village chawdi, use of public conveyance etc. Such programmes if carried into the villages will bring about the necessary social revolution in the Hindu society, without which it will not be possible for the depressed classes to get equal social status.’

The salvation of the depressed classes will come only when the caste Hindu is made to think and is forced to feel that he must alter his ways. For that you must create a crisis by direct action against his customary code of conduct. The crisis will compel him to think and once he begins to think he will be more ready to change than he is otherwise likely to be. The great defect in the policy of the least resistance and silent infiltration of rational ideas lies in this that they do not compel thought, for they do not produce crisis. The direct action in respect of Chawdar Tank in Mahad, the Kalaram temple in Nasik and the Gurwayur temple in Malawar have done in a few days what million days of preaching by reformers would never have done.

Equality of Opportunity

Much of the misery and poverty of the depressed classes is due to the absence of equality of opportunity, which in its turn is due to untouchability.

Much can be done by the private firms, and companies managed by the Hindus by extending their patronage to the depressed classes and by employing them in their offices in various grades and occupations suited to the capacities of the applicants.

Social Intercourse

The best way of achieving it is to establish closer contact between the two. Only a common cycle of participation can help people to overcome the strangeness of feeling which one has, when brought into contact with the other. Nothing can do this more effectively in my opinion than the admission of the depressed classes to the houses of the caste Hindus as guests or servants. The live contact thus established will familiarize both to a common and associated life and will pave the way for that unity which we all are striving after. (78-83)

He was very forthright and was never prejudiced and hence when Savarkar wanted to discuss the issue of removal of untouchability he wrote to him (Letter to V D Savarkar on 18.2.1933)

‘ If the untouchables are to be a part and parcel of the Hindu society, then it is not enough to remove untouchability, for that purpose you must destroy the Chaturvarna.

In a letter to Laxmi Kabir on Gandhi’s death Feburary 8th, 1948

‘ Great men are of great service to their country but they are also at certain times a great hinderance to the progress of their country.

Mr Gandhi had become a positive danger to this country. He had choked all free thought. He was holding together the congress, which is a combination of all the bad and self seeking elements in the society who agreed on no social or moral principals governing the life of the society except the one of praising and flattering of Mr. Gandhi. The death of Gandhi he said ‘, will release people from bondage to a superman, it will make them think for themselves and it will compel them to stand on their own merits.
( page 205)

Political, Economic Social Rights indivisible

On the social plane we have in India a society based on the principal of graded inequality which means elevation for some and degradation for others. On the economic plane we have a society in which there are some who have immense wealth as against many who live in abject poverty. On the 26th January 1950, we are going to enter into a life of contradictions. In Politics we will have equality ‘ one man one vote and one vote one value, and in social and economic life we will have inequality. We must remove this contradictions at the earliest possible moment or else who suffer from inequality will blow up the structure of political democracy which this assembly has so laboriously built.

‘If there is any cause of freedom in this Indian turmoil for independence, it is the cause of the untouchables. The cause of Hindus and the cause of Musalman is not the cause of freedom. Theirs is a struggle for power as distinguished from freedom. Consequently, it has always been a matter of surprise to me, that no party, no organisation devoted to the freedom has so far interested itself in the untouchables.’
( From Emancipation of Dalits by Dr Baba Saheb Ambedkar).61.

Right to Self Determination : Ambedkar talked of self determination in the form of separate electorate. That is why when Ambedkar pressed for the separate electorate demand for Dalits, Gandhi opposed it tooth and nail. It was the same Gandhi who had nothing against Muslim demand for a separate electorate. When the Poona pact was awarded in 1932, Gandhi could not tolerate his defeat at the hands of an articulate Dalit leader. As soon as he came back to India, Gandhi decided to fast unto death against such an award that would have brought a lot of changes in the quality of Dalit leadership in India. For Dalits would not have depended on the upper caste Hindus to get elected. Ambedkar succumbed to the blackmailing tactics of Gandhi and commented ‘ Mahatmas have come, Mahatmas have gone but the lot of Dalits remain the same’. Ambedkar feared that death of Gandhi would spark backlash against Dalits in the villages where the upper caste tyranny was still prevalent. He entered into a deal with Gandhi and signed Poona Pact, which allowed reservation of seats for Dalits in Parliament and state assemblies. Gandhi saved his upper caste interest and made Dalit leadership dependent on upper castes votes. Ambedkar himself became a victim of this and could not win Lok Sabha election from the state of Maharastra as all the upper castes joined hand against him.


Right to choose your faith

Ambedkar redefined history and linked the Dalits with Buddha. His efforts to reform Varna religion failed and he embarked on rational path of Buddhism. In fact, he mentioned very clearly that “, Unfortunately, I was born a Hindu. It was beyond my power to prevent that, I solemnly assure you that I will not die a Hindu.”

Justifying his viewpoint on Conversion, Dr Ambedkar said,’ There are two aspect of conversion as well as religious, material as well as spiritual. Whatever, may be the aspect or line of thinking it is necessary to understand the beginning, the nature of untouchability and how it is practiced. Without, this understanding, you will not be able to realise the real meaning underlying my declaration of conversion. In order to have a clear understanding of Untouchability and its practices in real life, I want you to recall the stories of the atrocities perpetrated against you. But very few of you might have realised as to why this happened.. This is the root of their tyranny. To me it is very necessary, that we understand it. This is not a feud between two rival men. The problem of untouchability is a matter of class struggle. It is a struggle between caste Hindus and untouchables. It is not a matter of doing injustice against one man. This is matter of injustice being done by one class against other. This struggle starts as soon as you start claiming equal treatment with others…

Dr Ambedkar said that there is no place for individual’s identity in so-called Hindu dharma as it does not appeal to my self respect and self conscience..” I tell you very specifically, religion is for men and not Man for religion. To get human treatment get converted. convert for getting organised. Convert for becoming strong. Convert for securing equality. Convert for getting liberty. Convert so that your domestic life may be happy.”

He told the people from his experiences “, Three factors are required for the upliftment of an individual. They are: Sympathy, equality and liberty. Can you say by experience that any of these factors exists in Hinduism?”

Conclusion : Ambedkar championed the cause of the down trodden. But to confine him to mere as a leader of Dalits will do him great injustice. He was the most accompalished political leader and philosopher among his contemporaries. He was much ahead of his time which is reflected when he was drafting the Hindu Code Bill. It was a bill which gave Indian woman a right which they never imagined. Unlike other political leaders including some of the Dalits who could not challenge the religion and text books, for Ambedkar human dignity was bigger than any religion and religious text book. The famous Satyagraha for the rights of the dalits to fetch water in Mahad is well known to be mentioned here. No human rights discourse in India could be complete with out detailed discussion on the outstanding work of Dr Bhim Rao Ambedkar.

( excerpts of paper presented at a seminar at Tirpuati Women's University on Ambedkar's Ideologies, in Tirupati, March 2007)

In Conversation with Mr Bhagwan Das

‘It is good to break and bad to continue with a tradition that has subjugated the Dalits’

By Vidya Bhushan Rawat


Mr Bhagwan Das is one of the most reputed scholar on Ambedkarism and the issue of Human Rights of Scheduled Castes. Widely traveled, Mr Bhagwan Das has spoken at various national & international platforms on the conditions of Dalits in India and what is the best way of their emancipation. In freewheeling conversation with Vidya Bhushan Rawat, he speak of the state of Dalit movement as well as political parties in India.

Please tell us about your childhood? Being son of a sweeper, what hurdles and obstacles you faced with and how did your father react to them.

My childhood was different. My father came from well off family. After the death of his father, differences occurred in the family and he came to live near Simla. He was not educated, as he could not go to school. My father worked as a sweeper in the post office. He had a house of his own and saved money regularly. He loved reading and had deep interest in Ayurveda. He took special care to educate my sister and me. A Maulvi was kept to teach us. So it was different unlike other untouchable families of time where education was not considered important. He was financially well off and spend most of the time with his books.

In my native village untouchability was practiced in turning on the taps. The barbar did not cut my hair; we could not enter a temple. We had to ask Hindu boys to give us water whenever we had to drink it but since my family was well off, we did not face any difficulty in this regard.

How did you come in touch with Dr Ambedkar?

Dr Ambedkar, then a labor minister visited Simla. I had read about Ambedkar particularly reading Urdu newspapers. He was our harbinger of Hope. We did not anything about him except all anti Ambedkar campaign in Congress papers was the same as in Hindu papers. The only exception I found Ambedkar in Hindi newspapers was Kranti by Sant Ram BA.of Jaat Paat Todak Mandal.

I went to meet him for the first time as I waited for him for three hours because I was first a boy, all the people holding important position came and went away, At 7 pm I was taken inside his house. He looked at my face. I did not go to ask for anything from him but he said ‘ What do you want?’ “ I do not want anything, as I was already employed, I said. I told him about my family and about my applications. In 15 days, I got a letter of appointment. This time my boss was a Muslim. It was surprising that I found that most of the Muslims were terribly against me. Some of the Hindus were very helpful and progressive. Some of them were South Indian Brahmins and I found them quite progressive but Matlab Hussain, my immediate boss, had some complaint against me as I was overburdened with my work. I used to work till 7.30 pm. Everybody tried to exploit me. I left that job and joined Indian Air Force. I did not want to join army but navy appealed to me.

I was again selected for further training to UK but I had to deposit Rs 5000/- which I could not do that and left Air Force in 1946 and went back to my family in Simla. There I was working with Scheduled Caste Federation and I came across very progressive people belonging to the communist parties, and one very progressive in the party was Kameshwar pandit. There we read a lot of Marxist literature and also learnt about Chinese experiment. I read about Mao Se Tung but who appealed to me was Le Su Tse.

We used to hold study circle meeting. I was staying at Seva Nagar, in Delhi. It was a peon’s house where I stayed for two years, as I could not afford a better one. Then I shifted to Lodi Colony with a friend who was an ex communist. He was thrown out of the party. He had been a whole timer. He was very fond of reading, not just Marxist literature but general reading. Later, I was allotted house in Sarojini Nagar.

Here, I came in touch with Mr Shiv Dayal Singh Chaursia, a backward caste person and a few others who were working with him in the movement. I used to spend out time in Gandhi Peace Library. Chaurasia wrote a note of dissent in the backward classes commission. He took me to show the note of dissent, which was actually drafted by me to Dr Ambedkar. Dr Ambedkar did not have a high opinion about that note. He asked to keep the note for his comment but started putting questions about me. He had forgotten that he had met me earlier. I spoke most of the time in English and offered to work for him. It was three days in a week to which he agreed. Some times, he wanted to information/abstract about certain books for which I used to go to Library. But after the work was over, I used to sit with Dr Ambedkar for 10 minutes and put my questions.

What would you discuss with Dr Ambedkar? What would he say to the issue of such as conversion as he was promoting a particular idea of embracing Buddhism? What actually was your position on it? Why should not we convert to any other faith of our choice? Unfortunately, caste system goes along with you even after conversion? What choices do we have to save us from the oppression and exploitation of caste system?

One of the questions was on Buddhism as he was always asking us to embrace Buddhism. I asked that I could not enter a Buddha Vihar. How do you say Buddhism is better than any other religion? I have been to Burma, seen Tibetan Buddhism but have not come anything worthwhile. Study is different but as long as social practice is concern, I do not find anything different in it.” Ambedkar replied, ‘all you said might be right whether I studied Buddhism or not. Now onwards it would not happen again. Since I studied a lot books on Buddhism and since I studied books on religion particularly Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Sikkhism, Kadianis etc, but Marxism and Buddhism attracted me the most. About Sikhism, I have a very poor opinion. I came close to them because I was teaching two children belonging to them. One of the students father was a doctor, who used to invite me to Gurudwara. I used to go there. Then there was one festival on which they had a langer (community meal) in the Gurudwara. One man asked the doctor; ‘you are making us eat with the Churas and Chamars.’ It was a shocking experience for me in the Gurudwara. After it I studied Sikhism and found that they had 10 Gurus, all belonging to the Khatri caste, none married outside their own parental castes and the fourth guru included teaching of Ravidas, Kabir and others in the Guru Granth Sahib but in practice Sikhism is no different from Hinduism. If a convert comes from Carpenter community, he is a Ramgarhia, if is he a convert from scavenger then he is a Majhabi, if he is a convert from liquor seller then is an Ahaluwalia. Where is the caste system gone? If goes from the front door and comes back from windows. They never started a movement to condemn caste system. After that incident, I never went to a Gurudwara.

I was still critical of Buddhism but felt that if untouchable continue to follow the religion they have been following then there was no chance of their ever unifying. If Hinduism is preaching untouchability against their castes, these castes themselves practice untouchabiliity among themselves. Now for instance, if you go to a Chamar, he looks down upon sweeper and if you go to a sweeper, especially in north India to those who calls themselves as Balmikis, they will never do anything with Helas, doms and Mehtar. Because Valmiki movement started in 1930s and mainly started by Arya Samajis because they were converting to Christianity. One person Tetar was asking the Christians to convert them but the upper caste priests were not ready to convert them for the fear of losing the other people from the church.

Upper castes converted to Christianity after 1857. There were Muslims, Hindus who became Christians when the missionaries started converting the untouchables. They too had started going to church but the Holy Communion was a problem. The upper castes started their prayer meeting in the morning and the untouchables were told to conduct their church meetings in the afternoon. So Kashmir gate church had two services, one in the morning and other in the evening for untouchables.

I also found that people who were converting to Buddhism was just for the namesake. It is unique to India that even after leaving your religion and embracing the other religion they stick to their castes. You cannot get rid of your caste. Unfortunately, a majority of those converted to embrace Buddhism were Mahars hence Mangs were looked down upon by the Mahars as they did not bothered about Chambhars.

What were your impressions about Baba Saheb Ambedkar when you first met him.

My father used to talk proudly about him. The thing which impressed me very much when I first met him was his love for learning and second his character which was immaculately clean, his worst enemies could not charge him on this front and third his commitment to the cause of untouchables. But when I was working with him in the labor ministry, I found his involvement in developing this country. He sent six Scheduled Castes to UK who later held important positions in the central ministry. Besides the SCs, he was interested in the industrialization of the country after the British left.


A lot has been written about Ambedkar’s conversion to Buddhism. Many Dalit intellectuals interpreted it as his anti Marx philosophy. Where does Ambedkar Stand on Marx?

He was not anti Marxist but against dogmatic people because the books written by Dange and other upper caste elite Marxists did not appeal to him. But he studied Marxism seriously and also the labor movement of UK. He was much interested in modernizing India and that is why he introduced this thing when he was labor minister. If you go to his writings in parliament, it has inclination for progressive and modern thinking and that is a common link between Nehru and Ambedkar and which writers have not highlighted, as they have not done independent research. They had much respect for each other. Ambedkar was not a great admirer of Nehru when he joined the government but when he had opportunity to interact with Nehru he opinion was very much different.

What is your reaction to the state of Dalit Movement today? There are so many republican parties as well as different caste based organizations. Then there is political philosophy of BAMSEF and BSP. What do you think is the future?

When Ambedkar entered the field he started Independent Labor Party and in that he not only had untouchable leaders but leaders from other communities such as upper castes who joined the movement and the party. In 1940 he felt that it was not enough so he formed Scheduled Castes Federation and it was exclusively for the untouchables of India. After India’s independence he felt that SCF was meaningless hence he started Republican Party of India and it was not a party exclusively for the SC people. He wanted to broaden the base and take up the economic cause for advancement of India but people who took over the leadership of RPI did not understand him and did not want to follow him. They wanted RPI for caste mobilization and hence it split on caste lines. Today there are so many wings of RPI that you do not even know.

You have been critical of BAMSEF? What were the basic differences that you found with them?

BAMSEF is not a political party. It says it is backward, SC and minority employees’ federation. If it is an employee federation than it is not a political party. BAMSEF was actually started by some people in Poona. They say we are trying to raise the consciousness of the people but how can a party, which has no political ideology and progrmme do that. But even today, strictly speaking it is not a political party. It is still utter confusion and now it has got spilt into three. And each speaking its own language and frankly speaking dominated by Chamar community in certain areas. In some areas of Vidarbha, it is dominated by the Mahars. It does not have an all India appeal because to organize SCs is not an easy job because they are divided into more than 800 castes. And there are castes and sub castes. Cast rivalry in there. Chamars are divided into more than 60 castes while Sweepers are divided into 12 castes. Valmikis are dominating the sweeper community but they cannot carry Dhanuks, Hellas, Doms and others with them.

So Dalit movement became a movement of a few enlightened castes. When I started Ambedkar Mission movement, I asked in writing that one member of the family must marry outside his/her parental caste. That is the only way to show that you work against casteism. In my case, I have relationship with 67 communities including Malas, Dhanuks etc. If you do not do it and then what is the use of saying that you want to break it?

What has conversion changed for the Dalits? One great Dalit cultural icon blamed conversion for taking away the revolutionary spirit from the community.

It is good to break and bad to continue in the tradition that has subjugated you. It is also important to understand whether it take away the revolutionary spirit or not. It is lack of understanding. Look at this way, if you continue to divide on caste lines you can never become a strong force. All Shudra castes are divided. And atishudras are hopelessly divided because of reservation as it gave opportunities only those which one enlightened made use of reservation and not others. In western UP, it was Jatavs who were the business and lay out number of educated people actually monopolized the jobs. What about others? In case they continue to remain in their communities/cast and not broaden their base, there is no hope. Second, here you are strengthening Hinduism, a religion which has exploited you because in ceremonies such as marriages, cremations, festivals, Mundans, you are following them and strengthening it. You are not strengthening yourself. In case the Dalit embrace other religion what will happen? They embraced Christianity but maintain caste. They embrace Islam and maintain caste because Islamic society is divided into three main castes Ashraf, Ajlaf and Afjals. Ashrafs are Shaikhs, Syed, Mughals and Pathans who came with invaders and they looked down upon people who converted here who were Ajlaf. And the third category people were the working class people; the lower castes and untouchables who converted to Islam were termed as Afjals. Today Butchers ( Khatiq) converted and claim that he is a Quraishi because they came from outside. Julaha is an untouchable caste but after conversion he claims himself as Ansari who came from Ansar. This fact remains despite all claims that Muslim society remains divided into three castes and there is no inter marriages. Christianity, Islam and Sikhism have failed because they were sticking to the originality of religion, presence of God and a book, which was allegedly created by God.

If people continue to be divided on caste line then what is the future? Religion is nominal or little value for the people. They stick to it mostly for political reasons, not because it gives them identity and history but majority of people who are forced into different religions, they only use it for marriages and burial. Nothing wrong with it. Dr Ambedkar thought, we need a revolutionary change and for that religion has to be changed. It needs to be on reason, compassion and brotherhood. He studied Buddhism and as Lord Buddha said towards the end of his life that there is no place for God. He wanted happiness of the people too. Unfortunately, the leaders of Buddhism were not able to carry that message. They maintained caste and at the same time call themselves as Buddhist.

What is the status of Dalit movement today?

Unfortunately, the movement never reached the agrarian communities. Dr Ambedkar chalked out a programme to reach 70% of our population, which lives in villages and was treated by the dominant communities very badly. If it is Marathas, Kunbis in Maharastra, it is Jaats and Gujjars in UP. He thought that Bengal is different. IN Bengal land went to Dalits because of reforms. Unfortunately, the leadership of the movement came from the urban areas. Educated, semi educated people took over the leadership of the movement. The movement did not go beyond that. Some people tried to educate people in the villages but working in the villages is very different, because society there is horizontally and vertically divided and land holding community is the worst enemy. What Ambedkar did was that he gave a call to the people to migrate to the cities. So the people who could not face situation in the rural areas migrated to urban areas but then the situation differs in every state.

In southern states the situation is slightly better in the sense because land was owned by the Brahmins and they have been thrown out in South but in the North India the land was not owned by the Brahmins but by the other people. They are the middle communities and became Hinduised. The village movement of landless people has not been initiated by RPI. They had it in their programme but it was never promoted because most of the leaders came from cities who were interested in winning reserve seats and used poor people for winning elections only.

Scavenger remains the lowest among the Dalits. How do you describe their condition today? What are the impediments in their development?

It is not a community itself. It is divided into 12-14 castes. But in South the division is not that bad. In Andhra Madigas who are basically Chamars but 7 castes among them work as scavengers hence the division is not that strict and harsh as in North India. Most of them are employed under the municipality, cantonment boar, and station staff offices. They have long traditions of people exploiting them and promoted as Jamadars in their department. Inspite of the fact that it is a lowly paid occupation, people pay bribe to get jobs even in Delhi you have to pay bribe to get job under MCD.

Unfortunately, efforts have not been made to unite the sweepers. Why? Because you took up the cause of one particular area and you choose a leader from these quarters. Others are working as private quarters in Mohallas under the bridge system. In this system you work under several masters, get left over food, old cloths, food on marriage or any other festivals so it is not but several local masters.

If they unite for economical weakness, they do not remain so for long. That is why the sweepers and scavengers even today remains to be one of the poorest and backward communities. One reason is leadership, second is economic and third is your locality. And this job does not need hard work. It is definitely a dirty work and looked down upon by every body. These factors resulted in many problems, like drinking and wasteful expenditure. Hindusiation has weakened them as they imitate. Efforts have not been made by different people and leaders to unite different castes and make them acquainted with the programmes of the government. Even the commissions have not been able to do that. Educationally, they are backwards because drop out rate is very high. Efforts have not been made to spread education in these classes.

I have been associated with the movement from the age of 16. I have also been associated with labor movement. Unfortunately ambitious political people take benefit of ignorance and backwardness of these people. Right kind of people are now training the Dalits and giving leadership but unfortunately ‘illterate’ people with little knowledge are long in the way and I think there is hardly any organization free from these accusations- Congress, BJP and others.

I am happy with the new youngs writing about the movements. When I meet them in conferences and seminars, I feel there is hope, though it is not easy. The population of right thinking people is taking an upward trend. Could you ever imagine that the sweeper of Punjab would hold mass conversion for Buddhism. New trends are coming up. New kind of leadership is coming. Unfortunately they do not have the mean to support them.


Political Power is the Master Key

Well, there was time when Baba Saheb Ambedkar said that. When you speak to different kind of audience’s particularly political leaders, it makes sense. But you will also have to get rid of the weakness with in the society. He also said promotion of education. What is being done on that side? It is wrong to say that he laid emphasis on political power. Political power with out right kind of ideology means nothing. I think people are misquoting Ambedkar that political power is the master key. He might have been speaking at Scheduled Caste Federation and with political leaders. But why we not talk about his other work. It is not enough.


Globalization has banged on our door. There are movements against it in various parts of India. Many of our friends have written positively on it suggesting that it would benefit the Dalits. Your take on it.

This government would have different complexion, if we had the 10% people in the civil services. Now with the judgment of the Supreme Courts they are going to suffer more. in the years to come. This globalization does not get attraction by the weaker section, at the moment. But then if in the globalization, the international movement on the issue of Dalits is properly handled, then even here in globalization they can have a share, if it is correctly done. Globalization has a political model and an economic model and it leads to empowerment but behind these ideas are people who want to solve their problems, find the market, create new market and create new classes. In western countries people are trying to create consciousness and awareness in the down trodden communities to develop leadership.


Dr Ambedkar was a truly humanist leader of our time but it look different castes have made him look like as if he was a caste leader. How do you describe Ambedkar?

He was a rationalist in thinking with the interest of SCs in mind. He never considered British to be the friend. But he got an opportunity because British wanted to expand the elected council but they elected other progressive people also. I think he was the most capable and learned person among his contemporaries. He had economic programmes which he could implement through Ministry of labor which was considered as orphan Ministry and through that he tried to promote industrialization of India and tried to create a class of the technically trained people. No body had done that earlier.