Saturday, November 12, 2016

Understanding Indigenous people’s issues in Bangladesh





Vidya Bhushan Rawat In Conversation with Chakma MK from CHT, Bangladesh

Chakma MK is a Human Rights activist working with indigenous people in the Chittagong Hill Tracts (CHT) of Bangladesh since 1980s. He has been working with Human Rights organizations on the issue of Indigenous People. He has spoken at various national and international forums on the issue of Chakma people. In a conversation with Vidya Bhushan Rawat, he explains the current crisis of the Chakma people in Bangladesh, their problems and how government deals with them. Equally important to understand the issues of indigenous people as far as partition of India was concern. It is difficult for human rights defenders, political activists in South Asia to speak candidly and boldly due to various security concerns of our friends. We are not providing much details of our friend due the security concerns but sure that this interaction will give you enough idea of the issue of indigenous people in Bangladesh and how they have been treated.

VB: Mr. Chakma what are the main issues of Chakma community in Bangladesh?

CMK: There are not only Chakma in Chittagong Hill Tract (CHT). It is a land of 11 multilingual indigenous peoples consisting of Chakma, Marma, Tripura, Mro, Bawm, Pangkhu, Khyang, Khumi, Chak, Lushai and Tanchangya. They all are collectively known as Jumma (High Landers). Besides, a very small number of descendents of Assames, Gorkha and Santals also live in there. They are distinct and different from the majority Bengali people of Bangladesh in respects of race, language, culture, heritage and religion.

The CHT is divided into three hill districts, namely, Rangamati, Khagrachari and Bandarban. The legal and administrative system in the CHT is nevertheless separate and distinct from those in other parts of the country. The general administrative setup does equally exist in CHT i.e. elected bodies of people’s representatives at two levels – Union and National level – along with the implementing line agencies at Upazila, District and National level. Alongside there are decentralised government institutions in CHT i.e. CHT Regional Council at regional level and Hill District Councils at district level. In addition to the above institutions, the CHT has a three tier traditional structure based on the customs of the local indigenous Jumma people with Circle Chiefs, and Headmen at Mouza and Karbaries at village levels. The Chiefs are the heads of their respective revenue and administrative circles. There are three Circles in the CHT, the Chakma Circle, the Bohmong Circle and the Mong Circle. All of these institutions are supervised by a new ministry, the Ministry of CHT Affairs. These are reflective of the distinct socio-political, cultural and historical background of the region.

Main issues of Jumma peoples are:
  • Government's policy of Islamisation of CHT region and ethnic cleansing as well
  • Infiltration of Bengali Muslim population to CHT
  • Non-implementation of CHT Accord that was signed between the Government of Bangladesh and the Parbatya Chattagram Jana Samhati Samiti (PCJSS) on 2 December 1997 for peaceful and political solution of CHT problem
  • Systematic land grabbing by government authorities including forest department and military forces, Bengali Muslim settlers, business companies, influential political leaders and military-civil bureaucrats etc.

VB:  How much is the population of the community in Bangladesh and what is their representation in government services and political parties?

CMK: The CHT comprises a total area of 5,093 sq. miles with around 1.6 million populations (as per census 2011). Among them, the indigenous Jumma peoples are around 845 thousands and Bengali Muslim settlers are around 752 thousands.

CHT Accord provides, against all the posts of officers of all ranks and employees of different classes in government, semi-government, local government and autonomous bodies of the CHT, the permanent dwellers of the CHT shall be appointed, subject to priority being given to the tribals.”

The CHT Regional Council gave its recommendation to the CHT Affairs Ministry along with the Ministry of Establishment to take necessary measures for inclusion of the said provision in the concerned appointment/service rules and regulations. But this provision has not yet been included in the concerned appointment/service rules and regulations applicable in the CHT region by the Ministries concerned. As a consequence, the outsider Bengali settlers are encroaching upon all employment facilities created for the Jumma peoples and permanent Bengali residents. Thus the Indigenousisation process of the administration of three hill districts of CHT is going to be blocked. The proper implementation of the CHT Accord cannot be possible by the outsider Bengali Muslim functionaries. As such the current trend of appointment and transfer of non-Jumma ethnic Bengali officers and staff to the CHT region is to be stopped right now in the greater interest of the Jumma peoples of the region and permanent residents of Bengalis.

VB: How much rights have been given to Chakma Hill Track people? Do you have any political, administrative autonomy there?

CMK: Before the British annexed the region to Bengal, Jumma people of CHT were independent. Even during the British colonial period (1860-1947), the CHT was regarded as an ‘Excluded Area”, in order to protect the indigenous Jumma people from economic exploitation by non-indigenous people and to preserve the indigenous peoples’ socio-cultural and political institutions based on customary laws, community ownership of land and so on. In fact, several provisions of the CHT Regulation of 1900 functioned as a safeguard for the Jumma people and it prohibited immigration into the region and land ownership by non-indigenous people.

The Pakistan government, however as per the provision of the Independence Act, recognised CHT as a fully Excluded Area and retained it even in the first constitution of Pakistan, which was passed in 1956, along with the CHT Regulation of 1900. It destroyed the economical backbone of the indigenous Jumma people completely. In the second constitution of Pakistan, the Excluded Area Status was changed to "Tribal Area" in 1962. But it was abolished in 1963 by constitutional amendment. The entire administration including the police was manned by Bengali Muslims from plain districts.

Bangladesh became independent in 1971, indigenous Jumma people hoped that the new rulers of Bangladesh would realize their hopes and aspirations as Bangladesh rulers also struggled against the oppression and suppression of Pakistani ruler and the Jumma people would be free from oppression and discrimination. So the Jumma people demanded to the then government for autonomy in a democratic way. Unfortunately the government of freshly independence Bangladesh did not respect their fundamental rights and did not write even a single word in the constitution regarding the entity and safeguard of the Jumma people. Rather immediately following the independence of Bangladesh in early 1972 the CHT underwent militarization. Three cantonments were established in Dighinala, Ruma and Alikadam during Sheikh Mujib period. Wide range discontent to unrest that resulted from terror throughout CHT let loose by the Mukti Bahini, forced the people to assemble into a common political platform with the formation of Parbatya Chattagram Jana Samhati Samiti (PCJSS) on 15 February 1972 under the leadership of M. N. Larma.

Hence, Jumma people started democratic movement for rights to self-determination. But the democratic movement of Jumma people turned into armed struggle when all democratic avenues are closed following assassination of Sheikh Mujibur Rahman in August 1975. After holding decade-long dialogues with the successive governments of General Ershad government (1985-1989), Begum Khleda Zia-led BNP government (1991-1995) and lastly Sheikh Hasian-led Awami League government (1996-1997), the 'CHT Accord' was finally signed between the PCJSS and Sheikh Hasina-led Awami League government in Dhaka on 2 December 1997. The CHT Accord could conclude the decades-long fierce internal conflicts and paves the way for the peace, development, demilitarization of the region and opportunities to meaningful engagement and representation of the Jumma peoples.

The main objectives of the CHT Accord  was to restore and protect rights of the indigenous Jumma people of CHT i.e. to restitute lands of the indigenous people, to have self-rule (proper representation of the Jumma people in the CHT administrative institutions) and to enhance fiscal decentralization for equitable economic development of CHT and also to accommodate rights of the permanent Bengali residents and thereby replace the previous policy of assimilation of the indigenous Jumma people with the policy of integration. The CHT Accord of 1997 provides-
·       for recognition of the CHT region as "tribal-inhabited region”;
·       strengthens the special governance system (a kind of self-rule) in CHT with the establishment of the CHT Regional Council and three Hill District Councils;
·       demilitarisation of the region (withdrawal of more than 500 temporary camps);
·       resolution of land disputes which were arisen due to forcible land grabbing by Bengali Muslim settlers;
·       rehabilitation of returnee Jumma refugees and internally displaced indigenous persons;
·       establishment of a CHT Affairs Ministry at national level;
·       rehabilitation of Bengali Muslim settlers outside CHT with dignity, and so on.

The Government of Bangladesh implemented some provisions of the Accord, such as, enactment of CHT Regional Council Act 1998, amendment of three Hill District Council Acts in 1998; formation of interim CHTRC and Ministry of CHT Affairs; repatriation of Jumma refugees from India; withdrawal of around 66 temporary camps (where the government claims withdrawal of 172 camps); formation of CHT Accord Implementation Committee, CHT Land Dispute Resolution Commission and Task Force on Rehabilitation of Returnee Refugees and IDPs, etc.

However, no effective initiative for implementation of the unimplemented provisions of the Accord has been taken even after 18 years. The main issues, such as preservation of tribes-inhabited characteristics of the region, devolution of effective authority to the CHTRC and three HDCs, resolution of land disputes, demilitarization, rehabilitation of returnee Jumma refugees and internally Jumma displaced families, rehabilitation of Bengali settlers outside CHT with dignity etc. Substantial progress is yet to be achieved due to non-implementation of the main issues of the Accord.

Provision for more strengthening of power and functions of three Hill District Councils with 33 transferable subjects, such as, law and order, general administration, district police, land and land management, forest (except reserved forest), primary and secondary education, youth welfare, environmental protection and development, local tourism, agriculture etc.

Provision for formation CHT Regional Council with the aim of making CHT a unique political and administrative unit. This Regional Council was bestowed upon the power of supervising and coordinating to the subjects transferred to three Hill District Councils (HDCs), law and order, general administrations, development, CHT Development Board, traditional and social justice etc and the power of giving license for heavy industries. In making any law in connection with CHT, the Government shall enact such law in consultation with the Regional Council.

Provision for establishment of Ministry for CHT Affairs where a cabinet minister would be appointed from among Jumma people and an Advisory Committee shall be constituted to lend support to this Ministry.

VB: Do Chakma people enjoy any particular benefit in the government services like in India where 7% seats are reserved for Scheduled Tribes? Do you have any affirmative action programme for your community?

CMK: The government of Bangladesh undertakes some affirmative actions in favour of indigenous peoples living in CHT and plain land of the country. Notable among these are:
·       setting up of a Special Affairs Division under the Prime Minister’s Office particularly for plain lands indigenous peoples;
·       signing of the CHT Peace Accord with the PCJSS as a solution of the CHT problem through political and peaceful means and accordingly establishment of CHT Regional Council and three Hill District Councils as special administrative arrangements for the CHT;
·       providing quota reservation in the government jobs (5%) and educational institutions for ‘tribal’ people;
·       setting up of 7 small ethnic cultural institutes throughout the country for preservation and development of small ethnic unique cultures.

In fact, the number of recruitment is much lower than the number of available posts allocated for indigenous candidates as per 5% reserved for tribal quota. After breaking down the figure on year basis, for example, it is found that only 22 indigenous candidates were appointed against 261 posts in the 24th BCS. 

VB: While the government in Dhaka is secular, the Islamist forces have been raising their ugly head in Bangladesh and the minorities are the biggest target. Does this Islamisation has impacted lives of Chakmas? If yes, then in what way?

CMK: Islamic militant groups in Bangladesh, under sponsorship of various vested quarters, have built up their well fortified positions in CHT in the recent years taking advantage of the existent fanatic atmospheres. As the communal mood is existent under state patronization in CHT, the terrorist and fanatic organizations had to have no trouble in getting the hilly CHT as a field quite fertile and favorable to them. These terrorist groups, with direct or indirect support of the communal and ultra nationalist groups including some officials of the local administration and local leadership of national political parties, are utilizing the CHT as their safe hinterland. These elements have been obstructing the implementation process of CHT Accord under various forms and guises.

It is learnt that there are base camps of armed terrorist group named "Rohingya Solidarity Organization” (RSO) in Naikhyongchari of Bandarban hill district. A bulk amount of money is being spent in organizing the Rohingya-camp-based terrorist outfits through several NGOs functioning in Bangladesh.[1] It is also learnt that the terrorist groups active in the country are recruiting their members from among the Rohingyas who are unregistered and living outside the refugee camps, such as from Chittagong, Cox’s Bazaar and Bandarban.[2] It is further known that noxious ideal of terrorism is being spread among the Rohingyas deliberately. Many extremist Islamic outfits including Jamat-E-Islam by providing arms training to the Rohingyas are getting them involved in armed ‘Jihad’. It is through discoursing religious messages ‘extremism’ is being spread by various means. News of preparation of the terrorists for sabotage activities in the three hill districts of CHT has come to lime light in the mass media.[3]

It has been learnt that the Rohingya outfits were involved in killing a Buddhist monk in Naikyongchari Upazila of Bandarban hill district on 14 May 2016. In investigation reports of various entities, the Rohingyas were shown with evidences to have attacked and plundered the Anser camp at Teknaf under Cox’s Bazar district on 13 May 2016. The Rohingyas, mostly of unregistered and illegal categories are dispersing in the three hill districts of CHT and getting involved in various criminal activities, arms & drug smuggling, and killings and robberies. But utterly surprising enough that these terrorist activities of national and foreign terrorist groups including that of Rohingyas are not brought to light in the anti-terrorism program of local administration and local Awami League in the three hill districts. Contrarily, the Rohingya terrorist leaders have been provided seats in the Anti-terrorism Committees in some cases. For instance, Shafi Ullah, the Rohingya leader has been made President of Upazila Anti-Terrorism and Extremism Committee in Naikhyongchari Upazila of Bandarban hill districts.[4]

It is learnt that in these days, many national and foreign terrorist groups are reported to be active in the Rohingya-inhabited areas including Bandarban and Cox’s Bazaar district. Islamic radical groups want to destabilize CHT to open a new front against Myanmar and north-east India.




VB: You mentioned that Bangladesh authorities tried to influence the demography of the CHT and a number of Muslim families were planted there to make a population balance. Can you tell us about what kind of process it was ? Did you oppose it ? Since when has this been being done?

CMK: During the partition of India and Pakistan, the total population of CHT was only 247,053 out of that only 2.5 percent Bengali including 1.5 percent Bengali Muslims. But after 20 years of Pakistan Period and 31 years of the Bangladesh period, the picture of the demography of CHT has significantly changed specially after the systematic illegal settlement of Bengali Muslims by the successive governments.

Noted the more than 500,000 Bengali Muslims from the plain districts of the Bangladesh has illegally been given settlement in CHT by the government of Bangladesh in 1980s. Fresh political migration of Bengali Muslims from different districts of the country to the CHT still continues alarmingly. So, presently according the Bangladesh census report 2011 the total population of the CHT is around 1.6 million populations comprising Jumma peoples are around 845 thousands and Bengali Muslim settlers are around 752 thousands.

During the partition of Indian sub-continent in 1947, the indigenous Jumma and Bengali Muslim population were 98.5% and 1.5% respectively. By now the ratio has been further aggravated with 51% Jumma people and 49% Bengali Muslim settlers. It is crystal clear that the Jumma people are going to be a minority in their own homeland very soon, because of successive governments’ prolonged and sustained Islamization policy.

VB: You mentioned that on 14th August 1947 Indian flag was hoisted at CHT and not the Pakistani flag. The entire CHT wanted to be part of India but was merged with Pakistan against the wishes of your people. Could you please explain it further as who were the leaders and what were your demands during independence and why were they not acceded.

CMK: Indian subcontinent was partitioned on the basis of two-nation theory under the provisions of Indian Independence Act, 1947. The Muslim dominated regions were to constitute Pakistan and the non-Muslim dominated regions were to constitute the Indian Union. It was quite natural for the Jumma people who constituted 98.5% of the total population of the then CHT to express desire to be included in the Indian Union. But the result was quite opposite, Sir Cyrill Radcliffe, Chairman of the Bengal Boundary Commission with a stroke of pen trampled down the aspiration of the people of CHT. The Bengal Boundary Commission recommended CHT to be part of Pakistan and on 17 August 1947 two days after the declaration of Pakistan independence the CHT was declared as part of Pakistan.

In fact, according to the primary survey reports of the Boundary Commission, CHT was to form a part of India. The mystery lies in the fact that the district of Zira and Ferozpur sub-division of Punjab, predominantly a Sikh populated area fell into Pakistan as envisaged in the early reports of Punjab Boundary Commission. As the Sikh are a brave and worrier nation they might not abide by the decision of the Punjab Boundary Commission if a part of Sikh dominated area would fall into Pakistan. Lord Mount Batten, Governor of the then India that the plan for Indian division might go futile; so he took it with serious concern. Therefore, Lord Mount Batten cancelled his primary plan and awarded CHT to Pakistan two days later after the declaration of Pakistan independence in exchange of Zira district and Ferozpur sub-division with India. It was incompatible with the Indian independence Act of 1947 by the British government.

The indigenous Jumma people of CHT could not abide by the decision of the Bengal Boundary Commission. The CHT Peoples' Association, a socio-political organisation of CHT under the leadership of Sneh Kumar Chakma, unfurled the Indian national flag on 15 August 1947 at Rangamati, capital of the CHT, as a mark of protest against this injustice. The leaders of the Peoples' Association formed resistance squads to defy the decision of the Bengal Boundary Commission. It was really an injustice to the CHT people meted out by the British at the fag end of their rule. The Jummas vehemently protested against the decision but to no avail. All their efforts were thwarted when the Baluch Regiment of Pakistan army entered into CHT and proclaimed control over the area. They lowered the Indian flag at Rangamati six days later at gunpoint and raised the flag of Pakistan on the 21 August 1947.

VB: In the common parlance we heard that Bangladesh government always looked towards Chakmas as suspect? Why? Did you not support the Bangladesh war of liberation? If not, why?

CMK: From the very outset, the Pakistani government looked upon the Jummas with an eye of suspicion as anti-Pakistani as well as anti-Islamic. It considered the indigenous people as hostile elements and pro-Indian. Therefore, the Pakistan governments' ultimate aim was to exterminate the people of CHT through its socio-political-economic policy. Even in 1950s, in implementing her brazen designs violating the principles and spirit of the CHT Regulation of 1900 the government of Pakistan started Bengali Muslim settlement in various areas of CHT in 1950s. The Section 51 of the CHT Regulation, which put a restriction on the outsider Bengali Muslim migration into the CHT, was repealed in 1965 to facilitate migration as well as infiltration of outsider Bengali Muslim settlers.

In 1960, in order to materialise its evil design and breaking down the economic backbone of the people of CHT, in the name of so-called industrial development the Pakistan government built the Kaptai hydroelectric project on the Karnafuli river in the heartland of the indigenous Jumma people which flooded 1,036 sq. km. of lands and submerged 54% (54,000 acre) of the best arable land and also displaced about 100,000 Jumma people from their ancestral hearth and homes for good. Rehabilitation Program was a cruel farce. By Karnafuli project people became panicky and because of insecurity, finding no alternative among these some 40,000 Chakma were forced to migrate into India and about 20,000 other Jumma people had to take refuge in Myanmar. The people who are living in Indian State of Arunachal are yet to be given citizenship.

After nine months of war of independence against Pakistan, Bangladesh emerged as an independent state on 16 December 1971. The victorious 'Mukti Bahini' (Freedom Fighter) entered into CHT with vengeance and communal hatred, creating a reign of terror situation throughout CHT. The Mukti Bahini fell upon the innocent Jumma people, killing, looting, arsoning and raping women, burning houses and villages, victimizing and terrorizing the inhabitants who was were forced to take refuge in the jungles. Soon after the Pakistani army had withdrawn, the Mukti Bahini went on a systematic rampage against the Jummas in the CHT. On 5 December 1971, 16 Jumma people were massacred by the Mukti Bahini at Panchari. Another 18 were killed at Dighinala. On 14 December 1971, the Mukti Bahini killed 22 Jumma people at Kukichara. Moreover, a huge amount of paddy land belonging to the indigenous Jumma people in Matiranga, Ramgarh and Manikchari under Khagrachari district was forcibly grabbed by the horde of Bengali Muslim from Feni district. They put lame excuse that Chakma Raja Tridiv Roy took with Pakistan side during Liberation War and Jumma youths joined to the Rajakar Bahini.

In fact, hundreds of Jumma people participated in the Liberation War. Mong Chief of Mong Circle played active role for Liberation War. He gave shelter hundreds of Bengali people who were on way to Tripura to take refuge there. He personally joined Mukti Bahini and fought against Pakistani army. There were hundreds of Jumma youths in the East Pakistan Rifle (EPR) who all joined Mukti Bahini. Many sacrificed their life in the war front. After independence, one rifleman Ukhya Shing Marma of EPR was awarded as Bir Bikrom award for his brave fighting against Pak army. Many Jumma service holders also joined Freedom Fighter. Some of them were Bimaleshwar Dewan, Tripura Kanti Chakma, Boren tripura, Kripasukh Chakma, Ananda Banshi Chakma et al.

Then Major and turned later into President, Ziaur Rahman with his forces went to Indian State of Tripura through Naniarchar, Mahalchari, Khagrachari and Ramgarh in CHT during Liberation War in 1971. At that time, Jumma people helped him in supplying food and ration and in crossing border guiding safe land road. Even a Chakma villager of Kamalchari village under Khagrachari district named Mriganga Chakma helped Major Ziaur Rahman to cross Chengi River taking Ziaur Rahman on his shoulder. As Jumma villagers helped Ziaur Rahman, Pakistan army later arrested many Jumma villagers including Mriganga Chakma, Sabhya Mohajan, Gouranga Dewan and Chitta Ranjan Karbari who were brutally killed later. Many Jumma women and girls were subjected to victims of rape by the Pakistani army for helping the Mukti Bahini.

However, a vested groups of Bengali Muslims spread propaganda with political motivation that Jumma people are anti-Liberation, they are pro-Pakistan, they helped Pak army etc. This way, soon after formation of Pakistan in 1947, Pakistan government termed Jumma people as pro-Indian and soon after independence of Bangladesh in 1971, Jumma peoples were identified as pro-Pakistan. The main objective of this vis-versa terming is to make lame excuse for oppression and suppression upon Jumma people.

Q. Did Indian government ever try to speak to their Bangladeshi counterpart about your issues and rights?

I did not see any instance in any open forum in speaking by the government of India to their Bangladeshi counterpart about our issues and rights. On the other, I am not sure whether Indian government ever try to speak in the bi-lateral meetings.

VB: What is United People's Party plan to achieve ? Is it the only party in your region or there are other parties too? Do you have any MNA in the National Assembly?

CMK: The Jumma peoples have established an unprecedented illustration in the history of struggle of the world’s freedom-loving peoples in ascertaining their just rights, by waging heroic struggle for 45 years under the leadership of PCJSS. All through its glorious movement, the PCJSS, as the result of its flawless strategy and tactics has been able to-
  • Inspire and unite the Jumma peoples, who were in slumber and wary under constant exploitation, oppression, atrocities and suppressive measures meted out by the rotting feudal leadership, in the political spirit;
  • Motivate and amalgamate the nearly abolishing Jumma peoples in the struggle for ascertaining their rights to self-determination;
  • Inspire the multi-lingual Jumma peoples, who were absolutely confined in narrow nationalism, in the spirit of Jumma nationalism;
  • Compel the government or rather the ruling class to sign the CHT Accord – the Charter of the Rights of the Jumma peoples and Bengali permanent residents – through waging steel-hard struggle against relatively very imbalanced power – the power of an established State.

PCJSS is in the movement for full, speedy and proper implementation of CHT Accord. Indeed, there is no alternative of the implementation of the CHT Accord to ensure the right to self-determination for the Jumma peoples. Insurance of establishment of Jumma peoples’ political, economic, administrative, social, cultural and land rights is laid in the implementation of the Accord. Hence, the 41st founding anniversary of the PCJSS calls on:
■ Compel the government to implement the CHT Accord aiming at the establishment of right to self-determination of permanent residents, both Jumma and Bengalis;
■ unite and stand against the anti-Accord elements including all the conspiracies designed to ethnic attrition being meted out upon the Jumma peoples;
■ take part of the democratic, non-communal and progressive movement at national level aiming to establish a democratic and progressive government.

In last parliamentary election held in January 2014, PCJSS candidate for Member of Parliament from Rangamati parliamentary constituency won the election. 22-member Interim CHT Regional Council was also formed by PCJSS.

VB: Was any Chakma made minister in Dhaka? If yes, did he do anything for the community?

CMK: Generally ruling party appointed a minister/state minister/deputy minister for CHT Affairs Ministry among from Jumma community. Awami League-led Current government appointed Bir Bahadur Ushwe Shing (who won election as MP from Bandarban parliamentary constituency) as State Minister for CHT Affairs Minister. As they appointed from ruling party, so they cannot do anything for the community beyond the party policy. Even, they do not have courage to raise voice for implementation of unimplemented core issues of CHT Accord.

VB: Have Chakmas faced violence in Bangladesh from the Islamic fundamentalists? If yes, please give us details. 

CMK: The failure to fully implement the CHT Accord has led to widespread human rights violations. Bengali settlers, often with the help of a section of the civil administration and military forces, continue large scale attacks upon Jumma people with the primary aim of grabbing their land. Gross human rights violations against the indigenous peoples continue unabated. The violations include arbitrary arrests, torture, extrajudicial killings, harassment of rights activists and sexual harassment. In most cases the violations happen with impunity. The failure to thoroughly investigate human rights violations by Bengali settlers with the support of the law enforcement agencies in the CHT remained a matter of serious concern. As a result, the indigenous Jumma people are leading a very unsecured life.

Expansion of settlements and forcible land grabbing continue unabated in all the three districts including on the roadsides in particular. Communal attack on indigenous Jumma villagers continue even during the period of present grand alliance government with an aim to uproot indigenous Jumma peoples from their ancestral lands and occupy their lands by Bengali settlers. As part of this planning, so far, apart from frequent incidents of sporadic arson on Jumma dwellings, at least 18 massive communal attacks were perpetrated during the post-Accord period in different parts of the three hill districts of CHT, obviously, to uproot indigenous Jumma peoples from their ancestral land and to settle down Bengali settlers over there. Moreover, activities to incite communal frenzy in the CHT are being intensified. After signing of CHT Accord, the following communal attacks were committed by Bengali settlers with the help security forces and fundamentalist militant groups-

Attack
Date
No. of houses
No. of person killed
No. of person injured
Raped/ sexual harass
Burnt down
Looted/
Damage
Baghaihat Attack
4 April 1999
--
--
--
51
1
Babuchara Attack
16 Oct 1999
--
74
3
140 ( 3 monks)
1
Boalkhali-Merung Attack
18 May 2001
42
191
--
5
--
Ramgarh Attack
25 June 2001
126
118
--
Several
--
Rajvila Attack
10 Oct 2002
11
100
--
3
--
Bhuyanchari Attack
19 April 2003
9
--
--
12
--
Mahalchari Attack
26 August 2003
359
137
2
50
10
Maischari Attack
3 April 2006
-
100
-
50
4
Sajek Arson Attack
20 April 2008
78
78
-
-
-
Baghaihat (Sajek) Arson Attack
19-20 Feb 2010
435
Same
2
25
-
Khagrachari Arson Attack
23 Feb 2010
61
Same
-
-
-
Longadu Arson Attack
17 Feb 2011
21
6
-
15
-
Ramgarh-Manikchar Attack
17 April 2011
111
-
2
25
-
Baghaichari-Dighinala Attack
14 Dec 2011
-
-
1
11
-
Rangamati Attack
22-23 Sept 2012
-
11
-
117
-
Taindong-Matiranga
3 August 2013
36
261
1
12
-
Kamalchari-Betchari
25-26 Feb 2014
-
6
-
5
-
Bogachari
16 Dec 2014
59
5
-
3
-


VB: Does administration take your issues with sympathy or cases are never resolved?

CMK: Civil and political rights of indigenous peoples are often intimidated in many cases. Right activists engaged in their legitimate actions to protect and promote their rights to self-government, land and resources, are frequently criminalized resulting in their arrests, detention, enforced disappearances and even sometimes become victims to political killings. In 2015, at least 74 members of indigenous communities including women and school girls were arrested. They were charged with criminal offences. However, most of them were released later on bail. On the other hand, fabricated cases were framed against at least 117 indigenous souls. Over the past few years, apparently, the most appalling issue facing indigenous women and girls in Bangladesh is the alarming rate of violence against them and the impunity enjoyed by the perpetrators. Due to the absence or weak enforcement of existing legal and non-legal measures by the State, indigenous women and girls continue to encounter different forms of violence. According to Kapaeeng Foundation’s statistics, from January 2007 to September 2016, there have been at least 466 reported incidents of violence against indigenous women and girls in Bangladesh.[5]

In comparison to 50 indigenous women and girls who were victims of rape, attempted rape and gang rape as reported by Kapaeeng Foundation, there were 615 victims of mainstream Bengali women and girls reported by Ain O Salish Kendra (ASK) in 2014. It is worth mentioning that 7.52% of the victims/survivors in 2014 were from indigenous communities, who are merely 1.8% of country’s total population, while the remaining 92.48% victims were from the Bengali community, who are the majority in the country with 98.2% of the total population.[6] From the statistical data given earlier, it is clear that the propensity of committing sexual and physical violence against indigenous women is higher than the violence faced by mainstream Bengali women. While indigenous women have a possibility to fall victim by the men from own community, they face a high rate of violence and discrimination from the men from outside of the community. Over past three years (2013-2015), on an average above 90% of the alleged perpetrators of violence were from non-indigenous background.[7] Such incidents occur massively due to ethnic and cultural differences. Violence against indigenous women and girls is one of the weapons used widely to evict them from their ancestral lands. Hegemonic chauvinism to dominate over and subdue minorities also acts as an inducement to exploit indigenous women sexually and physically.[8]


VB: As a minority group, how much you associate with other minorities in Bangladesh like Hindus and Christians?

CMK: PCJSS leadership is involved with Bangladesh Hindu Bouddha Christian Unity Council, national platform of minorities in Bangladesh and also Bangladesh Indigenous Peoples Forum, national platform of indigenous peoples in Bangladesh. PCJSS also has closed relationship with different civil society organizations of Bengali community.

VB: Chakma practice Buddhism. What are your main traits. Which kind of Buddhism do you practice?

CMK:The Chakma, Marma Tangchanya and Chak are mainly Buddhists, the Tripuras are Hindus and some smaller groups such as the Bawm, Khiyang, Lushai and Pangkhua are Christians. Mro and Khumi practise what is known as Animism, though some of them also follow Buddhism. Religious tolerance has been a long tradition of the Jumma people. CHT Buddhists follow Theravada Buddhism.

VB: Do you have any association, support, solidarity with the Dalits in Bangladesh. If yes then what kind of association or commonality of issues do you have?

CMK: We have loose relationship with the Dalits in Bangladesh. Many organisations are networking with organisations working for Dalits.

VB: Do you face discrimination in day today life due to your Chakma identity. If yes, please let us know as what kind of discrimination?

CMK: The first constitution of Bangladesh adopted in 1972 did not mention a single word about Jumma people and separate administrative arrangement for CHT. Rather, the constitution says, the citizen of Bangladesh will be regarded as Bengalees. Manabendra Narayan Larma, then member of Constituent Assembly and founder of PCJSS protested against this constitutional provision and walked assembly protesting the adoption of this racial Article. Even, he did not sign Constitutional Bill in 1972.

In the Fifteenth Constitution (Amendment) Bill passed in the parliament on 30 June 2011, the government ignored the demand of indigenous peoples for recognition of their fundamental rights including recognition as indigenous peoples. However, the government recognised the culture of indigenous peoples in the fifteenth amendment stating that “the State shall take steps to protect and develop the unique local culture and tradition of the tribes, minor races, ethnic sects and communities”. It is mentionable that the terminologies of “tribes, minor races, ethnic sects and communities” are not accepted by the indigenous peoples.

Further, fifteenth amendment provides that “the People of Bangladesh shall be known as Bangalees as a nation and the citizens of Bangladesh shall be known as Bangladeshies”. Indigenous peoples rejected this provision arguing that they are Bangladeshi as citizens, but they are not “Bangalee” as a nation. They all are a separate nation possessing separate identity, culture, customs, language and society apart from Bengalis. Indigenous peoples rejected the Fifteenth Amendment of Constitution saying that it undermined the human rights and fundamental freedoms of indigenous peoples.

Indigenous peoples demanded to review the 15th amendment to the constitution, which did not recognise them as ‘indigenous people and their fundamental rights. They urged the government to ensure indigenous peoples’ right to land along with their political, economic, cultural and social rights in the constitution.



[1] The Samakal, 18 January 2016, কক্সবাজারে রোহিঙ্গা ক্যাম্পে ফের জঙ্গি তৎপরতা, http://bangla.samakal.net/2016/01/18/187134
[3] The Bangla Tribune, 12 February 2016, পার্বত্য অঞ্চলে নাশকতার পরিকল্পনা জঙ্গিদের।
[4] The Prothom Alo, 7 August 2016, উপজেলা সন্ত্রাস ও জঙ্গি প্রতিরোধ কমিটি, রোহিঙ্গা বংশোদ্ভূত ব্যক্তিকে সভাপতি করা নিà§Ÿে বিতর্ক।
[5] Kapaeeng Foundation (2016) Human Rights Report 2015 on Indigenous Peoples in Bangladesh ed. Mong Shanoo Chowdhury and Pallab Chakma, Dhaka. Assistance has also been taken from the documentation team of Kapaeeng Foundation. 
[6] Kapaeeng Foundation (2015) Human Rights Report 2014 on Indigenous Peoples in Bangladesh, ed. Mong Shanoo Chowdhury and Pallab Chakma, Kapaeeng Foundation, Dhaka
[7] Kapaeeng Foundation (2014) Human Rights Report 2013 on Indigenous Peoples in Bangladesh, ed. Dr. Dalem Chandra Barman and Mong Sing Neo, Dhaka; Kapaeeng Foundation (2015) Human Rights Report 2014 on Indigenous Peoples in Bangladesh; ed. Mong Shanoo Chowdhury and Pallab Chakma, Dhaka;
[8] Ibid

Sunday, November 06, 2016

Political battles can only be fought on Programme based Agenda : L R Balley





Vidya Bhushan Rawat in Conversation with L R Balley, Founder Editor, Bhim Patrika, Jallandhar



Lahori Ram Balley is one of the doyens of Ambedkarites missionary journalism in India. Based in Jalandhar, L R Balley started Bhim Patrika in Urdu first immediately after the passing away of Dr Baba Saheb Ambedkar leaving his government job in Delhi. Bhim Patrika became voice of Ambedkarites all over the country once it started publishing in Punjabi, Hindi and English and to do this tedious work, Balley Saheb did not have a very big dedicated staff. Even today at the ripe age of 86 years, he constantly work and suggest that working for the mission of Baba Saheb Ambedkar is his life, his soul, his breath. This interview was recorded at his office cum home in Jalandhar last year in August 2015 and is available on  http://peoplesvoice.in/2016/04/18/conversation-l-r-balley/    and I am now placing it for record through my liberal translation of the conversation for a large segment of non Hindi speaking people.

VB : Balley Saheb, when did you start Bhim Patrika and what inspired you to do the same.
LRB : I along with K C Surekh started it initially. Actually, Surekh who was General Secretary, Scheduled Caste Federation in 1946 used to bring out Ujala, an Urdu weakly which due to certain reason was closed as Sulekh went to the government job in 1952 so there was no newspaper as such for us. In September 1958, I started initially in Urdu, then in Punjabi and English and finally in Hindi since 1965.. We decided to use word Bhim from Baba Saheb’s name Bhim Rao Ambedkar to start the Patrika, a magazine devoted to Dr Ambedkar’s mission.
 VB : What was its circulation when you started it. What were your struggles in establishing it particularly financially as well as trying to get volunteers for it?
LRB: In 1957 general elections were called out. I belonged to Navashahar which is now a district in Punjab. I along with Bhaiya Saheb Yashwant Ambedkar jointly toured Punjab during this period and fielded candidates for Scheduled Caste Federation. RPI had not yet started though the resolution had already been passed on September 30th, 1956 at 26 Alipur Road, New Delhi, Baba Saheb’s residence till his Mahaparinirwan. Hence when we went in campaigning during the elections, we addressed public meetings. Krishna Kumar who later became Krishna Kumar Bodhi and belonged to my native place had come to hear the speech of Baba Saheb’s son, liked my speech very much. He was a businessman and tried to find out about me antecedents and he finally came to meet me and asked me whether you want to live or run away. I had left my government job because the last time when I met Baba Saheb Ambedkar on September 30th, 1956, he was very ill that time. I made a promise to him that Baba Saheb, I will spread that mission and ideology till the end of life which you have worked all your life. So it was basically inspiration by Krishna Kumar that I started the paper.
VB : Did you have any thought in mind that Baba Saheb won’t live for long ?
LRB: Yes, I felt so. After the meeting of Scheduled Caste Federation, he was seated in the verandah for fresh air. He fainted. So he was brought in and was put on oxygen for some time along with medication. I had been sitting there on a chair for many hours. When he got well, then I promised him. I was in the government service that time. I was not the member of Scheduled Caste Federation working committee but Dr Bhagya Singh was the new chairman of Scheduled Caste Federation in Punjab and I went along with him to introduce him to Baba Saheb. I was sitting outside as I was not in the meeting but this is the thing after the meeting. I was sitting on the chair and later went in and was there for long. On 6th December 1956 when Baba Saheb got Mahaparinirvana, I was in the government job, a permanent employee in the P & T department and got deposited one month’s salary as desired according to service conditions, left the job and started working. I told Krishna Kumar that I am going to stay. Where will I go? He asked me to start a paper. Krishna Kumar inspired me to start the paper. He was not a Dalit. He belonged to Khatri, an upper caste, president of Arya Samaj, a big businessman of shoes and cloths. His family had many shops. He started supporting us. We started Bhim Patrika in Urdu.
VB : How much was circulation
Initially one thousand in Urdu, in Punjabi it was two thousand. People in Punjab don’t read much but we made it live. I did not know Hindi. I knew Urdu and Persian. In 1965 there was a Morcha and I was vice chairman of the action committee of. I was the first one to be arrested on December 6th, 1964 along with my wife, daughter and son in Delhi. Magistrate asked my children but my wife said we will also go along with. I was in Jail for 70 days.
VB :What were the charges and what were your demands.
LRB :There was no charges as we were arrested during the agitation. In February 1965, we got released. Our demand were nationalized bank, redistribute land, statue of Baba Saheb in Parliament, fulfill the reservation of SC ST in government jobs and many others like this.
VB : These were important demands which are not on the agenda of many of the Ambedkarites!
LRB : I have not only produced literature but also cadre. I placed people on work. There is a basti near railway station, there are 250 homes from Maharastra who had bad habits. I got them loan from bank on our personal guarantee. I never believed in speeches alone. I wanted people to make stronger on economic as well as in thoughts too. Land Reform is important.
 On June 15th, 1964, about 101 cadres of RPI came out on cycle to move towards Delhi for putting our demand to the Prime Minister. We used to eat Rotis on provided by people in the villages. In Seven days we reached Delhi to meet Lal Bahadur Shastri who had just become prime minister. He has just arrived. Our demand was that evacuee land be given to landless Dalits. We were given space in news. We met Shastri ji. He said you have come but go back to your town after ‘touring’ the city. We told him that we have not come here for that. Then, I went to meet Ram Manohar Lohia. He said I don’t go to the PM but would send someone. After some time Shastri invited Chief Minister Comrade Ram Kishan and then the government allotted evacuee land to millions of landless scheduled castes.  About 300 acres of land was allotted with my assistance to scheduled castes in Punjab in our city. Elsewhere many people actually got huge land against which a commission of inquiry was set up. So for us, it was work for the people that was more important.
VB: How did you come to Baba Saheb’s ideology?
LRB: My uncle was a qualified Doctor, a Hakim. He was educated. He was the president of Nagar Palika i.e. Municipality of Nawashahar. He used to get a of literary magazines and journals. I was fond of reading particularly Magazines and journals published in Urdu by Jat Pat Todak Mandal’s Sant Ram’s BA, in which lot of writings of Baba Saheb used to get published. I came to know about Baba Saheb through them. My uncle was member of the reception committee to receive Baba Saheb Ambedkar. Political leaders used to visit our family. My family was kind of reformed one and I can give them credit for what I am but later I studied a lot. I read each word of Baba Saheb.
VB: You met Sant Ram BA, President of Jat Pat Todak Mandal who became famous or infamous with his differences of Dr Ambedkar. What do you think about him?
LRB: He was basically a writer. He was an open mind person. He was a BA that time. He was engaged in farming and put animal bones as fertilizer. I used to meet him. His village was Purani Basi, Hoshiarpur. Basically, he was writer. He wrote over 200 books in his credit. He was a great translator. One of his finest translation was ‘’How to win friends’’ was translated in Hindi.
VB : The speech that Ambedkar wrote for Jaat Pad Todak Mandal as chair was never delivered because Sant Ram BA wanted to change some of its text. Did you ever discuss those issues related to Baba Saheb Ambedkar? Did he ever regret that Dr Ambedkar was unable to speak there?
LRB: Actually, things are not that simple. It is in the same book these things are there. Jat Pat Todal Mandal has most of the Arya Samajis. Sant Ram BA was an Arya Samaji who consider Vedas as the sole authority. In his speech, Dr Ambedkar speech, he writes, free youth from the thralldom of scriptures. Now, for all the Arya Samajis, Vedas are sacrosanct and hence they felt offended. Har Bhagwan, who was a student in Christian college, wrote to Baba Saheb for amending his presidential address. It was not Sant Ram BA but Har Bhagwan who wanted Baba Saheb to amend his speech.
It was Sant Ram who introduced Baba Saheb through his paper particularly to Urdu speaking people. When Baba Saheb married again in 1948, Sant Ram went to meet Baba Saheb. Their relations were never strained.
VB: Arya Samaj has a lot of influence in Punjab, Western UP, and Haryana. We feel whereever Arya Samaj has bigger influence, the attack on dalits are very high.
LRB : It is not Arya Samaj. We can’t say so. It is basically landed communities which are aggressive against Dalits. Arya Samaj was formed by Dayanand Saraswati. Arya Samaj was revived by Swami Shraddhanand ji. He was from Punjab only. His actual name was Munsi Ram. Bhagat Singh’s uncle Kishan Singh was an Arya Samaji. We are creation of Arya Samaj. They used to put us in Schools. They used to give children wash in handpump. They never believed in untouchability.
I don’t believe that Arya Samajis are attacking Dalits. Now as education is commercialized so has Arya Samajis. Read letters of Sant Ram BA and Swami Shraddhanand to Gandhi. They are very critical of Gandhi.
VB: You created a movement. You build RPI and Scheduled Castes Federation. Why Dalits could not influce Punjab politics?
LRB: After 1990s politics is changed. Politics after emergency was different. In 1967, we had two ministers in the coalition government of Gurunam Singh in Punjab . We had one minister with Charan Singh’s government in Uttar Pradesh. We resolved many economic issues. What we are witnessing in Doaba is the results of our work.
VB: The economic status of Dalits in Punjab is better than any other state. Gujarat  too is a powerful state but condition in Punjab are better. Is it because Sikkhism ?
LRB: Dalits in Punjab are powerful. If we are beaten up, we will also give them back but Sikkhism is the biggest problem. In Malwa the condition of Dalits is very bad. They don’t even have Pagadi. Malwa had old Riasats, like Patiala. So the caste system in the old Raja Razwadas is worst.
VB: How do you look at Ambedkarite movement in India today?  Its Strength and weaknesses.
LRB: When I started working in 1956. It was too risky to take Dr Ambedkar’s name. I have over 50 cases on me to rush me here and there. Even today, I have a case on me through my book ‘’Rangeela Gandhi’’. I had to give 20 lakh as bond, Ten lakh in cash as FD and 10 lakh property. Only then, I was given passport and that too for one year.
VB: What was there in Rangeela Gandhi that our government was afraid of it.
LRB: They banned it in Rajasthan. Here another book of mine ‘Hinduism ‘dharma or Kalank’ was banned.  I spoke in Jammu that Vedas contained nothing but forgery’. It offended some and they filed case against me under J & K. It was a historical speech of Baba Saheb on September 24th, 1944 that he spoke in Madras. I was taken from Jalandhar to Jammu to appear in the court. I know how difficult it was and how I survived.
VB: So you are facing from that day. Now everybody is afraid of Ambedkar.
LRB: Those were the years we were not allowed to organize meeting. That is our success that we have pushed Ambedkar so much that even the opponents are shouting slogan of Ambedkar. It is a success. But we never compromised on our principles.
VB: This is an important point.
LRB: I am simple person. I always felt like an ordinary citizen.
India’s intellectuals are dishonest. If you want to clarify please read Baba Saheb’s book, ‘The Untouchable’. There is a difference between an educated man, who is loyal to his caste, his community and sectarian cause, an intellectual die for his ideology. Our educated people, we can’t call them intellectual, continue to compromise.
VB : You were committed people, who kept the name of Baba Saheb alive. You have done a lot of work. Brought out so many volumes like you and Bhagwan Das. Today, many parties have been formed of Dalits..leaders. You are saying that our leaders are purchased. Our parties are compromising.
LRB: I was in Delhi. I saw a car, written on a car plate was Republican of India, formed by Baba Saheb.  It belonged to Ramdas Athawale, now a member of Rajya Sabha with the help of BJP and demonstrating in Delhi. What is it for? In 1966 RPI decided to ally with Congress. I resigned from the party opposing it. I contested 1967 under RPI Ambedkarite. We formed in Lucknow and fought elections all over the country. I contested against Swarn Singh, defence minister of India. WE never compromised. Most of the members who went to Congress actually compromised. See Barrister B D Khobargade got power and position. When communist went with the Congress faced the same. Feudal parties actually purchase the leadership of the poor and have nots.
VB : All the Dalit parties compromised with BJP. We won’t be able to work without it. Too much idealistic, we will not be able to stand.
LRB: I am not suggesting idealism. Please stand for the basic issues of people. What is ideal? Baba Saheb said, academics are nothing in politics. But do practical politics. Practical politics made five year plans, constitution was made. In the constitution is written that the Scheduled caste commission will send its report to President and then President will forward it to Parliament but see how many reports are not sending by the President for discussion and our leaders don’t even raise the issue. President doesn’t send the report. Baba Saheb spoke on Scheduled Caste Commission. What is untouchability. This is mental twist and how can we resolve it. You go to Parliament with reserve seat. Talk about country, about community, about development. Baba Saheb wrote to his friend, ‘ Santosh parmodham’ which is basically from Dhammapada.  People don’t understand it.
VB: People’s politics has disappeared.
LRB: WE have done people’s politics. I don’t have an issue. My younger brother is in England since 1959. I can shift to England and Canada and yet at this age of 86 years of age I am still fighting here. Leadership must emerge from people. We introduced Baba Saheb through literature. We know there were not many books that time. Today, there are so many writers. Those who cant write letters have become writers. Those who can’t sing have become singers. The entire society is demoralized. Our own have become worst many time.
VB : There are good people coming from the community.
LRB : Look, we have fight with RSS. But we should understand that many of their people working on the ground. We differ with their ideology and programme but they are devoted to their cause. We need such devoted people here too.
VB: Political power is a master key. Don’t you think there is a brain drain. All want to get in to government job but does not want to work for the community.
LRB : I agree to some extent. There may be some uncertainity for youths but what about the retired people. Why cant they devote their time for society. Our Baldev ji give his time to the community after retirement.How many percent people are there English educated 2%. How many of the so-called people. 98% people are languishing in the villages.
VB : There is an inertia.. bad conditions, kind of helplessness or disappointment.
LRB: Land can never be Banjh or barren. People will come out of movement when frustration will increase. India is moving towards civil war. There is nothing like Parliament or assembly as they don’t discuss. Unemployment will increase. It will result in frustration and that will go for civil war. Frustration has not reached to a final level. Then people will start question their own leaders.
VB: I want to ask why cant we agitate for our own power. I am not a fan of Anna Hazare. Why are unable to revolt.
LRB : This is a huge country, a very diverse country. Our General Secretary was from Karnataka C M Aramugam. One man cannot cover the entire country. Even if I wish, I can’t cover the entire country though I tour Punjab regularly.
VB : So alliance has to be made. We will have to make alliance in politics.
LRB :I am clear about it. Whether good or bad, it is the communists who can be our partner.
VB: But many Ambedkarites question any move for an alliance with communists. The complain is that communism is the biggest defence of Brahmanism particularly in India.
LRB : This may be correct but what can do with repetition of these. Ambedkarite need to change their tactics and point of view. Dr Ambedkar was impressed with Soviet model of pro people work of the government. Ambedkarite and communists should form a charter of demand, a common minimum programme and prepare people for movement.
VB: Do you think that the politics of Narsimha Rao in post 1990s was anti people, anti Dalits.
LRB : He purchased all the MPs. It is an open secret.
VB :Don’t you think that we should revive the demand of Proportionate Electorate System (PES) ?
LRB : There is no benefit of saying for a separate electorate but for Proportionate Electorate Baba Saheb agreed. Minu Masani said it in the Constituent Assembly.I can agree to PES. Baba sahib has not agreed to reservation and separate electorate. He said cumulative system of voting. The present electoral system is wrong.
VB : This system is there to keep brahmanical elite alive. Using the contradiction of the poor, dalits and using their hatred against Muslims to get votes of other communities.
LRB : A question came that revolution has to come from the people. It can’t come from outside. China has taken half Pakistan. There will be a time when China will try do something here. What Maoists are doing is international support. It is not possible without international support.
VB : Do you agree with their movement.
LRB : It will be suppressed. To some extent, I am for them. You have not allowed anything. Conditions of desperations are there. Baba Saheb said in annihilation of caste. You have kept them ignorant. If they come to anybody’s hand, it will be dangerous for you. Today, the same thing happening. Others are controlling them.
VB: Issues of land, forest and water.
LRB: Gadhchiroli was our bigger center apart from Adilabad. I have seen those areas. there is a Lumbini nagar near Adilabad where we got settled about 500 acre land for scheduled castes.
VB : You were talking about Alliance. Now BAMSEF talking about Unity of the Moolniwasis.
LRB: It is all Bakwas. Unless there is an minimum economic programme. Alliance built on programme. It can’t happen on caste basis. What do you want to do.
VB :Do you think that the politics of identity will not work.
LRB: They are clerks. BAMSECF. They are sarkari naukers. They can’t do anything. I have been nauker for 9 years, I know what it is. What is Mool Niwasi. This thought is wrong. Baba Saheb said none has come out from outside. Annihiliation gives one hundred answers. Moolniwasi is nothing. It is for their developing own leadership. Brahmanism means, being irrational. Brahmanism means domination.Those who claim themselves leader. Do you eat meat? You eat everything but now beef. Why not? They can’t say clearly. If it is meat. It is meat. Those who claim to be Ambedkarite don’t understand Ambedkarism. They don’t want to walk Ambedkarism. They won’t want to understand. I have taken numerous journeys for parties. We have brought various volumes of Baba Saheb. Such 21 volumes are brought by me. See this, page 48. Mr D R Bhandarkar, foreign elements in the Hindu population has stated that,’ there is hardly a class or caste in India, which has not a foreign strain in it. There is an admixture of alien blood not among the Rajputs, Marathas but even among the lower classes.
VB: It means Baba Saheb has rejected Mulniwasi..
LRB: Alliance cannot be identity based. Identity is personal. These calculations do not work. Punjab’s SCs have more than 40. Two dominant communities are Churas and Chamars who do not want to come together. This exists everywhere. How identity will bring them together. Only programme, that too time bound, will take us further.
VB: Shouldn’t we bring leadership from those groups.
LRB: We have to bring leadership from the communities. We will have to declass and decaste but this leadership will only emerge from the movement, if you are fighting. Dalits are not fighting today. He loves life. Muslims learn to sacrifice. Dalits fear of dying. They will have to leave this.  You see, how many people were killed by Mao, Stalin.
VB: Do you think we will have to retaliate?
LRB: That is the only solution.  Baba Saheb in his speech named a Reddy who had over 4,200 acre of a village.  Volume three, volume five…there is nothing wrong in eliminating those who owned property and exploit people.
Baba Saheb says so.
VB : People will question it. They will say we have faith in parliamentary democracy.
LRB: We must move towards to revolution. What is the option?
VB: Has the Parliamentry democracy failed
LRB: Where is democracy? There is no democracy?
I give you Baba Saheb’s quotation from Volume III
Volume III: If a murderer can be killed because he killed a citizen, a soldier can be killed in a war because he belong to a hostile nation, why can’t a property owner be killed if his ownership leads miseries for rest of the humanity, there is no reason to make an exception in favor of the property owner why should one considered private property as sacrosanct.
VB: This is a very important statement by Baba Saheb.
LRB: Yes, you have seen it. I did not write it. It is Baba Saheb’s statement. In Buddha and Karl Marx.
VB: In the Buddha and Dhamma, he called equality with Fraternity.
LRB: He has a speech in Pune. In India parliamentary democracy bound to fail..
VB: Why.
LRB: Baba Saheb give five reasons for failure of democracy in India.
No loyalty to the constitution,
Not acting according to constitution
Lack of strong opposition,
Election system not fair
People are now aware
There after there will be anarchy and some sort of communism he said.
VB: You are prophesizing in terms of future that there will be anarchy.
LRB: It is anarchy.
VB: How do frustrated people get out of it.
LRB: I am not an astrologer. My thinking is that some leadership will come up.I have seen 1947 riots. Any person who was very coward he also took sword and killed people. It is mob violence.
VB: You are the most senior among Ambedkarite world over.. You brought that literature. I am seeing photograph of Bhagat Singh. They feel that Simon Commission came for Dalits and Bhagat Singh was opposed it. What do we get of violence?
LRB: Baba Saheb did not comment on it. Gandhi called him sirfira. My village is 3 miles of Bhagat Singh’s village. I have known to entire family. I have read him thoroughly. The first shaheed was an editor of Urdu paper. He was shot. About 98 people were hanged. Why is Bhagat Singh got so prominent? Bhagat Singh had a principle. The bomb that he threw, he said, that we did not want to take life of people. He never opposed Baba Saheb. Then he said I am atheist and socialists. Those who condemn Bhagat Singh are idiots. They don’t have the capacity to analyse.
VB: I want to hear from you. They said Bhagat Singh famed because of being Jat and not Udham Singh. They divided Kabir and Raidas too on caste lines.
LRB: See this is wrong. Some of the Bhangis said that Baba Saheb belonged to their community but we remain. We don’t worship individuals but ideologies. We don’t worship Bhagat Singh. He ideology was of Insaniyat. Baba Saheb’s ideology is also of insaniyat. That is common point.
VB: What is your message for people world over?
LRB: First read Baba Saheb correctly and then understand him. Be progressive radical. It means that our alliance can only be with those who are progressive. Hence take along with them. Bring common issues related to oppressed communities and develop a plan for movement. For movement, idealism is important, pragmatism is important. Movement cannot be on the basis of castes.  The first time SC word came into government of India. When constitution was passed he said that we should not form organisations based on castes. Caste cannot be a reliable point. You can’t fight a political battle on the basis of caste. There are more than 40 sub castes which we call communities. Every state has such communities. How will you unite them? None can do that not even SCF. It is time rise above caste. Take progressive views, with progressive programmes. It will be meaningful.
VB: Is annihilation of caste is still valid or not.
LRB: An experiment happened in Maharastra. Prakash Ambedkar made a front along with communist parties, peasant groups. I support it. We must take it to India.
Baba Saheb said, inter caste marriage, inter dining are important but the third thing people ignore. Make youngsters free from the enslavement of the religious scriptures. Our constitution permits us to be secular. Manusmriti is being published and promoted. Constitution is not working. Our biggest problem is contradiction.
VB :We are using constitution only when it is suitable for us.  The brahmanical forces are responsible.. but why those who should leave it, not leaving it.
LRB: All the progressive forces must demand fourth part to be implemented. We should not allow monopoly. The sources of Income must be spent for the benefit of the people. The fair implementation of directive principles of the state is the heart of constitution. Baba Saheb called it socialism. He defined it.
VB : At last, I want to ask you the mission of Bhim Patrika. You worked, saw dr Ambedkar. What after you.
LRB: There can’t be a second Bali. There can be better than me but not like Balley. I have prepared paper for building a Bhim Patrika Trust probably by December 2016. As long as my health permits, I will work. I can settle in Canada, in England and I can stay with my family but I will continue to fight for people’s right. I will go on doing that till my last. Baba Saheb’s mission is my life. There is no meaning to my life other than the mission of Baba Saheb Ambedkar.