Caste forces did everything to defeat me in counsellor's election : Bishan Dass Bains

Conversation

Upper caste Hindus and Jat Sikhs did every effort to defeat me in my election to Wolverhampton Council :  Bishan Dass Bains, former Mayor Wolverhampton

Bishan Dass Bains is the first South Asian Mayor of Wolverhampton in United Kingdom elected at Labour Party ticket in November 1985. A staunch Ambedkarite Bains Saheb migrated to England in 1963 in search of a livelihood as well as to pursue further education. His life journey is that of struggle and determination. As an Ambedkarite he participated in various movement under the Republican Party of Great Britain too in the beginning but slowly he realised that he would serve his people better under the mainstream political parties in UK and Labour came as a natural choice for him as it was the party with socialist principles, supporting migrants as well as people who faced different kinds of discrimination. Bains succeeded in giving a new dynamics to his Mayoral position. He refused to follow the traditional way of the inauguration which was the domain of local church. Instead, he organised a local civil reception. His book ‘Pride vs Prejudice’ reflect the discrimination that he faced on the caste basis and explain in details as how the Jat Sikhs and caste Hindus did their best to defeat him in elections. This important conversation reveals how the caste minds have crossed overseas too and infected everyone there. Bains Saheb is not in active politics but Wolverhampton does not leave him and has been provided with the title ‘Alderman’ which is confirmed by the city council. He is active in strengthening Ambedkarite Buddhist movement in UK and India. Here is Bishan Dass Bains in conversation with Vidya Bhushan Rawat.

VB: When did you arrive in UK ? What was the reason of your coming here.  I mean what were your parents and where were they living in Punjab. Please also tell us about your education? Did you face any kind of discrimination at your home due to your caste ? What were your first impressions about England?

BDB: I was born and brought up in a small remote village Shaffipur, in northern state of Punjab India. The village had no shop, school, no health provisions and no community facility or religious place for people to get to gather.  The education was not an important part of their life. Consequently, 99% habitants were backward, illiterate, orthodox and superstitious. The village was epitomized thousands of villages in India where people were and still destined to born in poverty, live in poverty and died in poverty. I was second of my parent’s ten children. After going through a great deal of hardship in my early life, walking five miles to primary and high schools and traveling twenty miles to my college, I completed my graduation in 1963. The caste prejudice was wide open at every level of life as such upper caste Jat Sikhs will not socially  mix or dine to gather with SC,OBC and at school some of the teacher will not eat anything  touched by children from lower castes. I remember, in 1959 organising two months strike against caste prejudice at school. I was the first person from my village to educate to a degree level and it was a matter of pride for the whole family. They were not very happy about my idea of going abroad but reluctantly agreed to support me. While I was getting ready and making preparation to migrate to UK, my parents organised my marriage with Ram Piari, a girl from a neighbouring village. I came to UK.in 1963 for further education. After arriving here in England I have to make very difficult choice between pursuing my ambition for further education or to earn money to support my family back in India, and I choose the second option.

VB:  Your arrival in UK too has an interesting journey. Could you narrate that how did you reach the place you were supposed to stay?

BDB: My journey from home to England was very interesting. It was not easy to leave behind all, the family, friends and relatives, knowing that you are not going to see them for an unspecifiable time. It was for the first time that I travelled that far and by air. The whole journey from home to New Delhi, Mumbai and Heathrow was the most frightening experience of my life. I reached Heathrow airport at about 5 p.m. and after going through all the immigration and custom check-up, I came out of airport building and started looking eagerly for someone I know or had come to receive me. I was very disappointed and frightened to think about where to go now. I started searching my pockets and eventually found an address of a distance relative to whom I had never met. He was living in Wolverhampton, and I had no idea how far this place was? There were a number of unauthorised taxi drivers always plying for innocent new comer people like me. One of them was very quick to pick me up and asked me if I want a taxi, and asked him, how much it will be for Wolverhampton. He replied, don’t worry about the fare and quickly asked me to sit in the taxi. He picked up five and bundled us all six in his car and started driving. God know where he was going to take us to. It was now dark, cold and raining, hardly could I see anything outside. He took us to different towns and cities and dropped one by one at various places. I was the last one to reach at about 9.30 in Wolverhampton. The taxi driver knocked at door of a dimly lit terraced house in Lesley road Wolverhampton. A short chubby woman reluctantly half opened the door and peeped outside in dismay. The taxi driver said, madam you have visitor from India. She was taken aback, looked at a man standing in front of her, and said “what”? “A visitor – your relative from India, he replied. The lady of the house was looking confused and shaky. I opened the door and came out of the car with my shoulder bag hanging on one side. I said Namaste Bhabhi ji, she looked at me still confused and speechless. I took some courage to slide into the house and the taxi driver carried my suitcase inside the house. From the outset it looks nothing less than a force entry into a house of a stranger.

VB: What influenced you to be part of Baba Saheb's ideology? Was it from student times or at the later stage of your career? It would be good if you share in details.  You mentioned that you were part of the Republican Party in UK. You had several protest against discrimination against Dalits. Could you please explain it to us was when did you become member and what were the kind of activities that you took during this phase

BDB: I was always active with student union. During early sixties, there was a very limited Asian media in England. There was one Indian grocery shop used to sell “Blitz” weekly and a friend of mine was having “Bheem  Patrika” by post from India. I was passionately keen in reading both the papers. The All India Republican Party launched an agitation in 1964, against atrocities against down trodden masses of India and presented a charter of demands for the uplift of their living status. During the agitation more than 250000 people nationwide were arrested to jails and thirteen people became martyrs due to police brutality.

This agitation in India was a turning point in my life. I talk to some friends, organised meetings, made some collection and sent some financial support to the Republic Party Punjab branch. Then following on from there we decided to form a Republic Group of Great Britain and increased our membership all over England. I acted as convenor, secretary and chair for the group for several years. In those days, there were no computers, IT, telephone lines and type writers. I used to send dozens hand written notices for the meeting and used to get leaflets cyclostyled at the Labour Part offices.  The main purpose of the Group was to provide some financial and moral support to the Republican Party and people working for Baba Sahib’s mission in India. The Group done a great of ground work during sixties, organised meetings in different towns and cities, recruit membership, organise public meetings, and protest marches in London against inequality and caste prejudice in India.

VB: What were your reasons of leaving the Republican or India centric groups or parties? Were there ideological differences or you something else?

BDB: The civil war in All India Republic Party during second part of sixties had dire consequences weakening the roots of Baba Sahib’s mission. The party badly disintegrated and the leadership abandoned the sinking ship. Consequently, the infighting in RPI badly polluted the supporting organisations like Republican Group of GB, later the activities of the group gradually weakened and had to be abandoned.

VB: Interesting to learn that you joined politics later and that too labor party.  Was there anything specific in your joining labor? When was it?

BDB: Within a short period of coming to UK.I became active with Ravidass Dharmak Sabha, Anti Nazi League and Community Relations Council and of course Republican Group of Great Britain. I come cross many people including local leaders of the Labour party, who encouraged me to join the party. Historically the Labour Party is the bi-product of the trade union moment started after the second war and secondly it was the Labour Party government who granted independence to India. There were not a great deal of ideological differences between the socialist policies of the Labour party and the mission of Baba Sahib based upon equality, liberty and social justice.  The leaders of the local Labour Party persuaded me to join the party in 1968 and eventually asked me to contest local elections in 1973. In 1975, the party selected me to contest a bi-election from a so call safe Labour seat which I won with a comfortable majority.

VB: What kind of discrimination that you found in Britain in terms of RACIAL & CASTE DISCRIMINATION.

BDB: The British society was torn apart between black and whites as the racial prejudice and colour bar had reached its peak during the years of sixties and seventies. There were many pubs and clubs which had discretions to exclude black customers and it was not unusual to see a notice on their windows saying, ‘’Blacks and Asians are not allowed”. I came across this kind of situation in early days. Not only that, the new-comers were destined to live in squalors in run down inner city areas. They were made to work on dirty, dusty and hot jobs nobody wants to do. I was no exception to these prevailing conditions and was subjected to racial prejudice at work.

VB: How did the labor decide to nominate you for the Mayor of Wolverhampton? Who were the other contenders? Did you face any racial prejudices?

BDB: The 1979 election was the most memorable episode in the history of my political career in England. The Indian Workers Association, mainly lead and dominated by Punjabi Jat Sikhs, was a very strong national organisation during the period of sixties and seventies. They found it extremely difficult to digest and compromise with the facts that a person from a lower caste can be an elected member of the council. Subsequently, the dirty Indian politics of caste prejudice and religious hatred reared its head to undermine my position as an elected member of the council. They left no stone unturned to get me deselected by the Labour Party and replaced me with one from their own caste. After their failed attempts, they fielded a most reputable person the president of the Indian Workers Association, against me. During the election they started a smear campaign to tarnish my name and discredit my public reputation. They had army of workers roaming streets of my constituency all day, harassing and intimidating residents, printing and distributing literature. It was one of the most difficult elections as campaign as I have to overcome a multiple of discrimination and prejudice. In addition to Indian caste & religious prejudice, there was a British National Party (far right wing organisation) and other two parties slightly less racial. In the end with solid support from the Pakistani community, some indigenous and others, I managed to won the seat with an increased majority.

VB: We heard that during the election campaign the upper caste Hindus and Sikhs campaigned against you. Is it true? Did you true to reach them? Why did they oppose any Indian for such a prestigious position?

BDB: The local Labour Party had an established custom and practice for the past many years to elect a Mayoral candidate for the ensuing year. At a special meeting two names were proposed and secret voting taken, according to custom and practice the winner of the contest become the candidate for the following year, and the runner up is usually had the nomination and elected the following year.

I like to mention here that I was the only non-white out of sixty elected members of the council for many years, and the rest of fifty nine were all indigenous whites. In the beginning I was not interested at all to become the Mayor of the city. But there were some left wing councillors who wanted me to bid for my right. My name was dully proposed and seconded continuously for two constructive years and I lost the contest for both times. It means the established custom and practices which were being followed up over the past many years were violated for no reason other than underlying racial prejudice. Not only that, it was contrary to the policy of equality of opportunity of the national Labour Party. This situation left me with no option but to seriously consider my position in both terms as an elected member of the council and as a member of the party. I decided not to walk away quietly but to fight back and publically expose their behaviour of racial prejudice. I decided to bring the whole truth of underlying racial prejudice in the Labour Party into public domain.

Now it was not a question of getting the nomination for mayoralty but to fight back for equality of opportunity and justice. I decided to issue a press statement, high lighting the underlying racial discrimination within the Labour Party. It was a very controversial, of course a courageous move which attracted a great deal of public support for me and contrarily huge discontentment amongst my fellow Labour councillors. . I was served with a show cause notice and meeting with the high command leadership. I justify my actions at the meeting and it was decided to harmonise mutual relations amongst elected members of the Labour Party.

VB: And you won the historical battle? The first Asian for becoming Mayor of this town? Please narrate the entire event for us. When was it exactly and how did things happen?

BDB: It was for the third time lucky in 1985 I won the contest to become a candidate for Mayoralty for the year 1986/87. After the nomination the first and the foremost thing I did was to declare that I shall not organise a traditional Civic – Sunday and secondly I will not appoint my Christian Chaplin for any prayer at the beginning of every council meeting. This move generated a great deal of controversy. All the opposition parties and leaders of Christian Churches ganged up against me and threatened boycott and no co-operation during my year of mayoralty.

VB: One of the most remarkable things was that you change the entire political discourse here as well as the tradition of going to Church with all fanfare. So you broke the traditional protocol if I may say so when you took oath of Mayor. What was the event and how did you decide not to follow the official protocol.  Were there opposition to it?

BDB;I took over the office of Mayor in May 1986, and within few months I manage to harmonise my relations with all the different communities living here in Wolverhampton. I became a focus of attention all over the country as I was the first Indian born Mayor in England. I had many invitations to speak at different functions and on different subjects from all over the country. I attended 2300 functions and meetings in one year and delivered Baba Sahib’s message of EQUALITY LIBERT AND SOCIAL JUSTICE everywhere I go. I and my wife Ram Piari who took over the gracious role of the Mayoress, were well received by people from all denominations except Sikh temples.

VB: Wolverhampton is mini Asia like Birmingham. I call it undivided India. How are your relations with friends from other nationalities like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka ? I mean does national identities ever affected your warmth?

BDB: Now living and working here with the, and for the community, over the past many years, I have very good relations with people from many differing denominations. There many Gurudwaras, Hindu Temples, Churches and other religious places regularly inviting me to their special functions and I enjoy the highest regards from all of them.  

   

VB: What were the main achievements that you attribute to your Mayoral period?

BDB: There are a number of memorable achievements, of which I am proud to have the credits for as such:-  

A…..What can be a most memorable thing for an untouchable person to attain the highest post of number one citizen of the town in a country which virtually ruled the whole world.

B…..Many people consider me and my year of Mayoralty as an inspiration role model for younger generations to encourage them to participate into mainstream organisations.

C…..The most important thing, is to remember was that where ever I go or spoken about, I always carry the message and preaching of equality, liberty, fraternity, and social justice the main pivot of Baba Sahib’s mission.

VB: What are you doing now after your retirement from politics? 

BDB: As you are aware that now I have decided to retire from the council but they still need me off and on, and appointed me an honorary Alderman which means I still have some optional civic responsibilities. Now I am heavily engaged in harmonising relations and creating an atmosphere of mutual understandings and unity amongst Ambedkarites living here in UK.

When we started the Ambedkarite movement in early sixties, there were only few of us but we were well organised and united. Now we have a large number of Ambedkarites and organisations in different towns and cities but they are working in total isolation from each other. The Ambedkarites over the years have achieved great many things but they could have done lot more by working together under a well organised central body.

VB: How do you describe people claiming Baba Saheb’s to work for Baba Saheb’s vision too and glorifying to their traditional identities too.

BDB: My view in regard to maintaining the traditional identities and still claiming to be Ambedkarites. Baba Sahib was fully aware about the back grounds and history of untouchables divided in to thousands of castes and sub castes they had faith and worship their local deities. Baba Sahib’s advocacy for conversion to Buddhism was for two reasons i, e, firstly to get rid of the slavery of Hinduism, secondly to bring unification amongst down trodden masses of India.

Those who stick to their traditional faith and still claim to be the followers of Baba Sahib, in my opinion, their loyalty to the mission is a marriage of convenience and they are no better than fanatic Hindus.

VB: How do we make basic human rights issues as part of Ambedkarite movement? Is it not time to come out of the religious structure and focus on civil and political rights of the people ?

BDB: In western world people less care about religion and devote their energy more for commodities of daily life such as ROTI, CAPRA and MAKAN. A large number of churches have closed and the rest of them are struggling for survival. In the case of India the situation is totally opposite, as more and more religious establishments are mushrooming day by day and they are not short of money. As there are many Muslim countries are indirectly run by fanatic Mullahs similarly India have been and now being run by Shankaracharyas and Hindu priests.

That is why Baba Sahib said that India is a country where politics and religion go side by side supporting each other. He urged down trodden people to grab as much as possible political power to utilize for the benefit of those in need. The Ambedkarites and down trodden people of India must come out of their Hindu enclaves and strengthen their bonds into national unification. They can become a strong national force capable to not only protect their human rights but also the strong contender to rule the country. 

  

VB: The British government is not honoring the commitment made in Parliament when they passed equality law. What is the biggest hurdle in its implementation? Do you think that after BJP's coming to power in India; the Hindu Right wing has got strengthened in UK and is thwarting every effort to implement the law?

BDB: The campaign to include caste discrimination into Human Rights & Equality Act 2010 has been going on over the past several years. But the year of 2015 marked the turning point in this regards when the British government introduce the bill in the parliament. The bill had gone through both houses of the parliament after all odds but the implementation was up held due to pressure from right wing Hindu as well as Sikh organisations in UK.  There is a great deal of scepticism that it cannot possibly happen without a very high profile interference and collaboration by the BJP government of India. It is worth mentioning here that out of 1.5m. Indian population in UK, Hindus & Sikhs combined are the second biggest vote bank which play a significance roll to influence the election results. During 2015 UK general elections, a Sikh member of the parliament not only repeatedly voted against the bill but also organised very high profile visits for  David Cameron the Tory leader and the prime minister, to Golden Temple in Amritsar & Bala Ji Hindu Temple, London the biggest in UK.

Those opposing the legislation stated that caste system does not exist in UK. But the fear lurks in their mind that the implications will be far beyond the boundaries of UK. The campaign to reintroduce the Bill is still going on and I am sure that in the end the common sense will prevail and the victory will be ours. As I have mentioned in my book Pride VS Prejudice that the bill to introduce changes had gone through the both houses of British parliament but the implementation was upheld due to pressure from both the Hindu and Sikh fanatic organisations. The majority of pro- legislation people think that there is pressure from BJP government in addition to local lobbying in UK.

VB:  What should be an ideal Ambedkarite in your opinion? What kind of political thoughts and socio-cultural behavior is expected of an Ambedkarite?

BDB: Dr. Ambedkar was a great patriot and he wanted to see independent India a secular democratic republic state. For him, a transfer of political power in an independent India was not sufficient unless it is supported by economic and social democracy. We are reminded of Baba Sahib’s speech to constitutional assembly on 25th.Nov.1949 that on 26th.Jan.1950 we are going to enter in to a life of contradiction where in politics we will have equality and in social and economic life we will have inequality. We must remove this contradiction as earliest as possible.

He was a strong advocate of human rights as such equality, liberty and social justice, which are the fundamental principles of modern civilised society. To achieve all this he lead the down trodden masses of India to come out of enclaves of Hinduism and secondly to take as much as possible control of political power. The Poona Pact and conversion in to Buddhism are two historical examples of his struggle to achieve human dignity and equal rights for all.

VB: You got the title Alderman recently. Could you share with us what is it and why is it given?

BDB: ALDERMAN is an honorary title confirmed by the city council Wolverhampton. The council, under old custom and practice, can appoint a person an Alderman in recognition of  his length and quality of public services..

In Conversation with veteran Ambedkarite Bhagwan Das

This is one of the rare conversation with advocate Bhagwan Das which I am uploading here. For the first time, I am uploading/connecting my youtube videos on my blog in hope it reaches wider audiences. Look Forward to your responses.

Vidya Bhushan Rawat

A wake up call

Welcome 2017. Seasons greetings to you all in hope that there will more interaction, a positive one among all of us. There was brutal repression on students and all segments particularly those who are considered to opinion makers even when we know the 'mainstream' opinion is being manufactured by the lie factories of particular thoughts that we all know. When you have everything under your disposal virtually spineless then why are they afraid of a few of us?

It means that One truth has bigger power than millions of lies.Past year gave us hope also as protests grew up in the country though at the fag end the 'supreme leader' has #demonetised 86% of our currency thus throwing the entire country into an organised and well planned chaos to help the power elite and their business from collapsing. At the end of the year people felt that the Raja would introspect and speak about the killings of the people and hope for future but he gave them election promises.

These things are not happening in isolation. There is attempt to subvert parliament and look down upon it in contempt. Why are these announcement not made and discussed there. Why do you need a monologue to do so. Why has the announcement for housing, health etc need to be announced by the Prime Minister ? Is Ministry of Finance now being sidelined like what happened in Sushma Swaraj's case with her Ministry of External Affairs. A cabinet is a combined responsibility of Ministers and it seems our Prime minister is taking éxtrapain' to 'deliver' for his ministries. Not acceptable.

Most of the sectors which mattered in terms of opinion are under the threat by this blatant invasion on their integrity. The civil society was targeted earlier, the organisations working for the poor, the students groups, the academia and the media which did not toe the line. These are actually the best period for all these institutions to flourish if they have spine as some of them showed during emergency. Today, the situation is far worst than what you could imagine in 1975. Today's corporate state has developed new mechanism against the dissenters. It is not merely physical threat or intimidation by the intelligence or tax authorities but also manufacturing of stories by the #bhaktmedia to denigrate those who stand and speak.

Morality today is not what we used to think or what was taught to us but it is sarkari defined morality. We felt Constitutional morality but morality by this elite is different. It is basically based on the 'papers' that you hold. So if you do not have a paper for something that does not satisfy by the Babus then you are immoral. All the power elite in the country with their ill gotten wealth are the 'role model'. It is interesting to know that in our struggle against corruption and nepotism we never heard the names of those thugs who are involved in tax evasion and parking their money abroad not just in Switzerland but also in Panama. We have not heard anything about the Dalal Street in Mumbai and its master being investigated. A few stories are those of comparatively very small people and that too will not be investigated properly. We know these are headline grabbing things to keep the people 'hopeful' in the so called war against çorruption'.

An environment of intimidation is prevailing where the ruling party behaving like opposition and very shockingly the opposition has no will to fight against the government. It is time to make Parliament functional and use it as we know the government would convert it into monologue but there are great speakers even today and they must use the opportunity for a fruitful debate. It is time for all of us to be with people, use the social media to spread our thoughts and come into close cooperation with like minded people. It is time to join hands to fight against the corporate brahmanical war on its people. We know us have extreme views and many of us feel except us none think and we are purer than others. Political battles are not fought in isolation and exclusivism, they need to be widely inclusive with a Common Minimum Programme and participation and inclusion of a diverse groups of people. Yes, politics cant survive on past prejudices. They give us lessons to learn to move forward in the direction envisioned by our constitutional forefathers.

We know many of us have been doing things at different places. Working with people in our own ways, helping the needy and the most marginalised. That must continue. Democratise the spaces that we have and make them secular in absolute terms, politicise a debate and make linkages. I have no prejudices except that a clear no in the company of hate mongers and those who suffer from prejudices. Any secular action that speak of people's right is welcome and our solidarity with such movements and struggles. I believe in Baba Saheb Ambredkar's vision and would definitely go to strengthen his ideas of a modern democracy. Yes, my Ambedkarism make me link to all the like minded rationalist, humanist, secularist, Periyarists, Phulewadis, Bhagat Singh Wadis, and all streams of activists, who are fighting for people's right and doing a bit. At least do our bit to express solidarities with those who are working for people's right. Let the 'Jhanda-banner' be aside as I know these are the issues that some time fails people.

As long as we are alive we must carry hope positively. If hope is lost our lives are lost. I wish you all purposeful days ahead. Hope you have satisfying life in fulfilling your aspirations and commitments. And yes, always listen to Kabir, Shailendera, Sahir, Faiz and so many others as empower us, help us and be with us, when we are all alone.

Vidya Bhushan Rawat
January 1st, 2017

BSP is the only alternative at the moment to defeat the forces of Hindutva in Uttar Pradesh : Bhanwar Meghwanshi.

In Conversation with Bhanwar Meghwanshi

Bhanwar Meghwanshi is an incisive and forthright contemporary voice of the progressive Dalit movement in Rajasthan.  He has untiringly participated in campaigns and movements across the country, creating awareness on communalism, casteism, gender violence, globalisation, displacement and so on. Born on February 25, 1975 in village Siridiyas in Bhilwara district into a Dalit weaver family, Meghwanshi was indoctrinated at the fragile age of 13, by the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh (RSS), with whom he spent five active years. He was made the head teacher (mukhya shikshak) of his village’s ‘shakha’ (camp) of the Sangh, and later on, its district office head. He was part of the first ‘kar seva’ that set out to demolish the Babri Masjid, but was arrested before reaching Ayodhya and spent 10 days in the Agra jail. Thereafter, a certain incident completely shattered his faith in the RSS, making him realise their extreme, anti-Dalit stance. He severed ties with them, openly taking a stance against them.

After leaving the RSS, Meghwanshi worked full-time on communal harmony, brotherhood and peace, which he continues to, till date. He was vociferous in his writings against the Gujarat carnage of 2002, and took part in the documentation and report writing with members of the Concerned Citizens’ Tribunal formed for the Gujarat victims. He also published the magazine Diamond India between 2002 and 2012, which lent voice to struggles against communalism and casteism. He broke many stereotypes and myths regarding minority communities, uncovering truths. 

Bhanwar Meghawanshi speaks out his heart in this candid conversation with  Vidya Bhushan Rawat.

VB: What is the biggest challenge before the Dalit movement at the moment?

BM: There are many; both external and within. It is really worrisome the way communal forces have coopted the movement. Today, a large section of Dalit leadership is getting trapped by Sangh Parivar with their lips sealed due to lure of power.  Dalit representatives no longer speak about Dalits. Bureaucracy and those occupying seats of power are busy repressing Dalit voices. And the Sangh agenda is that to either take them together but if they don’t join hand then trap them false cases.

Hence we are witnessing the repression of Dalits more vigorously. The Dalit movement is also losing some of its innate fervor. It appears befuddled, and many a time, seems to lack clarity about whom it is standing with. It is unable to discern between friends and foes. Dalals who have sprung within the community have distorted the fundamental spirit of the movement. Most of the Dalit leaders are in the twilight of their careers. The challenges are new but their methods are old. The new generation Dalits want something different, but a direction seems to elude them.

And then, there are internal conflicts. The caste ‘layers’ amongst Dalits themselves threaten to be tainted with the same brush of casteism. Many Dalit castes are so busy buttressing their own identities; they have completely turned away from the work of annihilating caste. The firming up of caste identities within Dalits is the biggest hurdle in the fight against casteism, and our weakest point. Such a situation is ripe ground for the Sangh, to further its disruptive work, even as they constantly attempt to turn small differences between Dalits into permanent enmities.

VB: What would you speak on the close ranking of Ambedkar and Left forces post-Rohith Vemula’s institutional murder was short-lived, and the distance, in fact, widened in the recent JNU elections.

BM: Yes, the two forces did converge and there was hope that the ‘Jai Bhim’-‘Laal Salam’ jugalbandhi would resonate further, stronger. That was the need for the hour. It was heartening that the country’s Left had started accepting questions of caste, and appeared standing by the Ambedkarite movement. But the confrontation between the Left Unity and Birsa Ambedkar Phule Students’ Association (BAPSA) in the recent JNU elections appears to signal the end of the unity seen in the aftermath of Rohith Vemula. This was also cited as a cause for concern by many, but I would like to see this whole sequence a bit differently.

We need to understand that India’s Left and Ambedkar groups were never natural allies, they’ve always remained two distinctive streams. Yes, they did converge on the streets over Rohith, but that does not mean a convergence of ideologies. In my opinion, it was a spontaneous solidarity, over a particular issue, which had to end sooner or later. If another issue comes along, they will meet yet again, part yet again.

But to conclude, on the other hand, that the JNU elections represent an ideological tussle may also be hasty. The Left has a chance to self-reflect. BAPSA and Left Unity have to arrive at a consensus. Merely election based rivalry cannot become the dividing line between friendship and enmity.

VB: The Left has committed many mistakes. Not only in non-acceptance of caste, but also in their class character. Their leadership has never really been in the hands of the poor. When we forge a political movement, every campaign, including that of Ambedkarites and Dalits, needs to be healthily analysed, because if none of us had faults, brahmanism could never be so strong?

BM: I agree that this is not the time only to criticise the Left. But who will provide an answer to the fact that the Left, till date, has swept questions of caste under the carpet? Why are there no Dalits or Adivasis who have been able to come forward in their leadership? You (the Left) will talk of class, but not caste; this cannot be. You will cry hoarse about poverty but not look at caste in the face, this cannot be. The Left in India needs to fight brahmanism as honestly and responsibly as they talk against capitalism and imperialism.

At the same time, the Dalit-Bahujan movement needs to take a peek into itself; a healthy introspection, that is best for its rights. The Ambedkarite movement has to free itself from its casteist character, and at the same time, save itself from brahmanism.

VB: There is much talk of the Dalit-Bahujan unity but the only common point of the alliance amongst its constituents is anti-brahminism.  Don’t you think a need for some positive programme to bring the Dalits and Bahujan together? As Babasaheb said, graded inequalities exist, and it would also be a mistake to think that within the Bahujan polarisation, all forces are equal? How can there be any unity unless there is a talk of equality?  

BM: The forces within the Dalit Bahujan are certainly not uniform. The ‘unity’ we see is a show on stage. The forces appear to come together in public only to condemn brahminism.  But in reality, what expectation can we have of this alliance, when the ‘backward’ sections amongst the Bahujan stream of thought are the biggest practitioners of casteism today? They are steeped in hypocrisy, rituals and religious humbug. It would be naïve to expect those very sections who are vanguards of brahminism today, to fight against it. Take a look at the cases of Dalit atrocities. In many places, the main accused in 90% of cases is from OBCs. How do we align with those who are perpetrating violence on us every day? This is a grave situation, and our deluded leaders are far removed from both scientific and ground realities, when they insist on singing the tune of ‘Dalit-backward’ unity, and of ‘indigenous communities’ (moolniwasi) unity.

Dalit-Bahujan unity is a mere figment of our imagination. Today, some of the so-called Bahujan organisations are often led by brahman leaders. As long as the backwards stand at the forefront of casteism and continue perpetrating atrocities on Dalits, they will remain as much our opponents, just as the so-called upper castes.

VB: The media highlighted Rohith Vemula’s murder quite a bit. Many felt perhaps, it has now become more sensitive to Dalit questions. But it almost completely bypassed Delta Meghwal’s case. So many cruel incidents take place in villages, and the media just forgets. Neither Dalit nor communist organsation now approach the people of Bhagana, who are still fighting for the last four years. The media’s nowhere to be seen. Why is this so?

BM: I don’t agree the mainstream media gave any special attention to Rohith Vemula’s death. It is only when social media started making it a big issue that the print and electronic media, true to its casteist character, started negative reporting. They created myths around Rohith’s caste, made him out to be a beef-eating seditious. Every effort was made to cast a slur on him. In Delta Meghwal’s case too, the media’s response was negative. First, they tried character assassination, and then the whole issue was simply buried quietly. In Rohith’s case, the accused were the government representatives, but in Delta’s they were of the business class; those who actually run the show of media houses and TV channels. When people from their own clan turned out to be the accused, the media naturally started wagging its tail. Dalit atrocities are not sexy stories. The rape of Dalit women do not awaken the sensitivity of the casteist media. Whether Bhagana or Dangawaas, Delta or Una, only the social media is taking it forward. The fact is that media is more worried about its advertisers than giving news about our memorandums.

VB: You have been associated with many movements like the MKSS, Right to Food, PUCL etc. Do Dalits have any place in these movements?

BM: There has never been space for Dalits in anything that’s ‘mainstream’, nor is it there at present. Everywhere, Dalits are simply showpieces. There is no difference in the character of social movements. Nowhere is independent Dalit leadership accepted. Everyone loves the backward Dalit, but no one likes the outspoken, assertive Dalit. Civil society should also become democratic, inclusive, and stop using Dalits as labels.

VB: What is the state of Ambedkarite/Dalit movements in Rajasthan?

BM: Rajasthan has traditionally been a feudal state. We have never had a social/political/cultural stream of protest. So much so that even during the bhakti movement, no one like Kabir or Raidas was born here. A shroud of subservience has always dominated. Mental subservience has been rampant for ages. During the Dalit liberation struggles too, Rajasthan’s participation has been negligible. During the Poona pact, the so-called leaders of Dalits of the state were distributing pamphlets against Babasaheb. Here, rather than Kabir-Phule-Ambedkar followers, Gandhi’s ‘harijans’ and weak Dalit leaders subservient to parties have been prevalent. After independence, the reins of the Dalit movement went into the hands of the Dalit followers of Hedgewar-Golwalkar, and fans of Gandhi-Nehru. Then, the socialist type political Dalit movement was born, which raised slogans of social justice, but whose leaders were from the same exploiting castes.

Consequent to the 1992 Kumher, Bharatpur Dalit massacre, a Dalit movement outside of politics started to emerge, which later became the victim of NGOisation. Project-based Dalit movements have also worsened the situation. Today, the Dalit movement in Rajasthan is under the threat of fragmentation.  From individual based, routine struggles, sprung small groups. Some have opened their own family/caste based ‘shops’ in the name of Dalits, while as we talk, Rajasthan ranks the highest in Dalit atrocities, untouchability and discrimination.  But it is heartening to note, after the Dangawaas episode, the Dalit youth have spontaneously come together in protest, and met with some success too. The dalit youth movement have the declared our silent dalit leadership as ‘the weeds of the Poona pact’ and also sidelined caste-based groups.

Those social organisations who have been running shops for years have also had to face many uncomfortable questions.  From Dangaawas to Delta, the emergence of an independent, self-reliant Ambedkarite movement can be considered as a happy sign.

VB: Do you think Dalit groups should work separately? What is the alternative when the Left doesn’t support? Shouldn’t the Dalit- Bahujan-Minorities take new initiatives to fundamentally strengthen ourselves?

BM: There is no need for Dalits to work in complete isolation. The need is to work with independence and self-confidence. The need is to take one’s own decisions. No matter whether there is support from the Left or other progressive streams or not, Dalit groups should be able to stand on their own. Dalit, Adivasis, Nomadic and Minority communities need to close rank, and we have to forget about taking along the BCs for now. If we can do this, we can indeed emerge as a strong political force.

VB: Do we need politics of identity or of ideology? Although it could also be said that identity contains ideology; this is contentious…the Sangh has been cleverest in using identity. How do people understand the person in front is ‘mine’? Or that he could be from the same caste, but also a dalal of the community selling its interest to the exploiters.

BM: I feel the days of identity in Dalit struggle are over. The Sangh’s people have played the politics of identity to the hilt, and benefitted most from it. They know how to play the identity card better than us. We need to focus on ideology. If we are talking of bringing long term change, then it is important we establish the ideology of humanity and equality that Buddha, Phule, Shahu, Kabir, Raidas and Ambedkar have left us with.

VB: Your autobiography is a fine document which urges us to understand the construct of ‘our own’. I feel every ideology has its own interpretation of nationalism, which is finally used only by the dominant people within each group through which we want to control our own communities, for which we create certain principles, and where the villain is always ‘the other’ – the other caste, community or country. The villain keeps changing according to the need, but most of the times, we are the villain ourselves?

BM: Its too early and prematurely written, as so much yet remains to be done. But these stories also need to be told. No publisher was willing to publish it. It is the new media which has reached it to the people. I have raised questions about ‘us’, or ‘our people’ and about myself too, in the Hindu Taliban. You’re right in saying we change our villains according to the need of the moment. The politics of control or domination converts into doctrines even the wrong decisions taken by us, to cover up our own weaknesses and ambitions. Dalit leadership and organisations need to respect our critiques as there should be someone who can question the villain within. Since the very idea of nation is linked to the misuse of power and authority,  every group in every era will have a different delineation of nationalism, which will be used as per each one’s convenience.

At the end, the entire debate on nation, nationality and nationalism is bogus.

VB: How do you view the new wave of Dalit writings?

BM: It is heartening that so many Dalit writings are coming up. They are still laden with the feeling of victimhood and anguish. But the literature of resistance is flourishing too. It is coming out in different languages. Yet, they are not able to make a mark on the so-called mainstream literature. We need to make Dalit literature the literature of humanity. It should not be made out to be literature of, for and by Dalits. Everyone should feel the urge to read it, and to read it with fervour. We need to make our literature of resistance more popular, cast its net wider. The Dalit writers of the Hindi belt need to improvise. Read Anand Nilakantan’s Puranic based fiction Asura and Ajaya, and you will feel like you’re sitting inside a bahujan organisation’s cadre camp and listening. Nilakantan has planted a slap on brahminism through characters such as Raavana, Duryodhana and Karna. This is just an example. Dalit literature is, in fact, literature of equality. Its voice need to be transformed into mainstream.

VB: Have we not become too ‘intellectual’ because landlessness, labour problems, manual scavenging, child labour, privatisation etc. are slowly disappearing from our list of issues? Shouldn’t all this be on the agenda of Ambedkarites?

BM: We can be thinkers if we are of use to society. Instead of thinkers, we’ve become neurotic.  We’re perpetually worried always crying. On the other hand, our intellectuals have become so vain, they live in their own world. If we cannot keep the interests of what is happening in reality today in focus, what sort of intellectuals are we? Even today, thousands of our co-brothers and sisters are forced into begging, lakhs are cleaning shit. So many children are still sifting through garbage, so many spend their lives living on the streets. We have to think - what has all this privatisation and globalisation given us? If these people’s agendas have disappeared from our thinking and campaigns, then we are indeed living in some other world. We have to bring them into the Ambedkarite struggle, only then we can call ourselves a people’s movement.

VB: For those who regard Babasaheb rightly, casteism and capitalism are both the biggest enemies. Today, Dalit youth are standing up. But a movement is also a reaction. Gujarat, Hyderabad, etc. have proved that Dalits wont keep quiet now. But the current of Ambedkarism has to keep flowing continually to build an enlightened India as envisaged by Baba Saheb. What do you feel is important for this?

BM: Reaction is important, just as speaking out instantaneously is. I wholeheartedly support the reactions that rose in Una and Hyderabad. It is a sign that Dalit youth have zero tolerance. But we also need to understand the conspiracy behind this. Are they trying to get us lost into a maze of atrocities, trapping us so we spend all our energy in fighting these incidents, and they live on happily?

Both Casteism and capitalism are our enemies. If we fight against one and support the other; our struggle becomes feeble. The bazaar and brahminism are closely linked, to support one is to lend breath to the other. We don’t need just economic growth. We have to build an enlightened and strong India which is not merely possible with economic empowerment. We need an independent, progressive and scientific awakening which will free India of slaves of Manu and capital. For this, we have to focus on participating in cultural and economic fora. For now, all our efforts are focused on political and social equality but we seem to be unsuccessful in the direction of fighting the Vedic sanctioned slavery and economic inequality. We need to put our focus on these two issues importantly.

VB: How did you join the RSS? Did they search you out or you went voluntarily?

BM: When I was in the 7^th standard, my geography teacher rounded us up and started teaching us some games, and then some songs. Then followed some conversation. Then they gave us khakhi shorts and black caps. One day, we were told that we had been chosen by God’s will for the Sangh’s shakha, and that we were lucky to be chosen. Sure, I went on my own out of enticement of play and games. But later, recognising my capabilities, they made me the head teacher, and later, the district office head.

It is only in retrospect I realised that their talk of patriotism, ‘dharmo rakshati rakshataha’, etc., is a foil. In reality, they create fear by pointing towards Muslims, and hatred towards Christians. That is how they mobilise.

VB: I still remember two days before the Babri Masjid demolition, I was with someone in Haryana, and the words he said to me were – “this time, the kar seva will go well.” Did you know then that the Masjid would fall?

BM: Of course I knew. It was pre-planned. Bringing down the Masjid - that was the real objective of the kar seva.

VB: Even today, the Sangh is going towards Dalit and Adivasi villages, in Rajasthan, Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh. What attracts people to their programmes? Do Ambedkarism, Bahujan, Socialism, Left, or any other stream not have any programme to do with cultural aspirations, or have we stopped going to the people? It is true that the Sangh doesn’t lack resources, but they also have diligent, faithful workers who come from distant places work and with strong ideological commitment….

BM: The Sangh today works on the model of missionaries, in far-flung places. They are found amongst the Valmiki families in cities, and they are found in distant jungles among Adivasis. They establish their ideology through social work. They are visible with the people in good times and bad. They understand people’s wants, and fulfill them, while we just talk, philosophically.

We are just not there (for people) at times of need, while the Sangh’s pracharaks are ever-present. 

The Left, Ambedkarites, socialites, bahujanites, and other non-Sangh forces, have truly stopped going amidst people. They’re visible only in political debates or hollow intellectual discussions.

It is not only a matter of money, but commitment. RSS has the resources, it is true, but they also have dedicated cadres. They are willing to go anywhere.

VB: How strong is the current of cultural change in Ambedkarism in MP, Gujarat and Rajasthan?

BM: Gujarat has become a hotbed of change. In Rajasthan and MP, it is simmering within. We need responsible leadership with the right initiative to turn it into a wave.

VB: How does one face the Sangh’s propaganda? Sometimes cow, sometimes beef, Bharat Mata, Ganga, Pakistan and Muslim preoccupy them 24 hours. They are mostly questions on which people easily get manipulated, because they think it is a matter of nation and culture. How do Dalits, Adivasis, and backward castes respond to this?

BM: We can counter propaganda only with facts and truth. The Sangh is the world’s largest factory for packaging lies in the form of truth. Gaay (cow), Ganga, Gayatri, Gomaata, Bharat Maata, Beef, Nationalism,Patriotism, Vande Mataram are merely their tools. The underlying aim is to oppress the country’s toiling masses. They have made the Sangh and the State complementary to each other. Voting for the BJP has become synonymous with patriotism. Protection of an animal such as cow has become a symbol of culture. We have to reach the truth to people. We have to give a non-communal interpretation to the constructs of ‘country’, ‘society’ and ‘culture’. We need to talk directly with people. I am convinced only Dalits can check this harmful political virus of Hindutva.

VB: You said that the Left never understood casteism and hence, the gap between them and the Dalits will always remain. One has to form an understanding to defeat brahmanism and fascism. In many places Dalits and Muslims have substantial presence in terms of numbers, but in many, there aren’t. We have to make alliances on common ideology. What kind of people would you like to take along in the struggle of Dalits and Adivasis?

BM: There is a need to make many kinds of alliances to counter brahmanism and fascism. Where we can work with the Left, we should associate with them, unhesitatingly on certain Common Minimum Programmes. Where we have the Bahujan alternative, no harm in going with them too and If we feel comfortable going with any religious minority, we could think of that too. The enemy is widespread, and huge. They need to be fought at different forums and with many groups.

VB: You have said the OBCs are leading in atrocities against Dalits. Isn’t that a simple statement, because if one looks at categories amongst them, the landless (among OBCs) are natural allies of the Dalits.

BM: No, it is not a naïve statement. It is the grassroot truth. Analyse the cases lodged under the SC/ST Atrocities Act, and you’ll find my position correct. Even if the landless among the OBCs are close to Dalits in an economic sense, they are afflicted with the same ‘upper-lower’ mentality as brahmanism. The day OBCs will accept Dalit leadership, stop injustice and atrocities on Dalits, only then we can hope for change.

VB:  Political struggles can never be fought with negative agenda. Buddha showed his way to change and the ‘dhamma’ spread across the globe. He didn’t take the name of the enemy even once. Babsaheb fought on political ground, he gave us rights, and he too understood at the end that we cannot have political struggle without cultural transformation. Do you feel our fight is incomplete without going towards the Buddha’s path, and only political change is insufficient for an enlightened India?

BM: Like every religion, there appears to be a gap between thought and practice in Buddhism too. Some are brahmanising the religion. Communal elements have tried to project Buddha as Vishnu’s tenth avataar. Buddha’s statues are worshipped nearly the same way gods and goddesses are, according to the Vedic tradition. Some neo-Buddhists have brought their caste along into the religion, building ghettos into it. Even marriages are sometimes conceived of between the ‘same caste’ among the Buddhists. We need to avoid this. Another matter of concern is, those sincere workers who would fight for change in society are now neglecting taking on such struggles and have immersed themselves in meditation. Their natural militancy and dreams of social change have been stripped. 

We need to understand that merely and technically converting to a religious Buddhist is not going to solve all our problems. Anyway, no religion can free Dalits, because religion itself is bondage. How can bondage give freedom? Dalits need to seek not freedom in religion but freedom from all religion. For now, Buddhism is being seen as a way out of Brahmanism – which is okay as long as it truly accepts Buddha’s scientific consciousness and rationality. It is better for the Dalits to embrace the path of Buddha.

VB : What would you say on the issue of very important elections of Uttar Pradesh.

BM : UP elections can bring a new light in these times of darkness if Manuwadi as well as market forces are defeated. It could be termed as a referendum against the loudmouth prime minister who has completed more than half of his tenure. All the political parties are fighting this with all their might and they must make it a direct fight between ideologies. I feel that politics of hatred must get defeated.

VB: You are taking UP elections as a referendum on Narendra Modi government. Both Samajwadi Party and Bahujan Samaj Party are contesting against each other. How would you call people to vote as people like me feel that saying, ‘People must vote to a party able to defeat BJP’ mean confusing them further? How could people decide who is in a winning position hence it is important to make an ambiguous appeal to them who to vote in the greater interest of the country.

BM: There is no difficulty in this. First aim should be to defeat BJP, second should be to vote the party in a position to defeat BJP. Samajwadi Party and Bahujan Samaj Party are the main rivals though the media is trying to underplay BSP as for them it seems that SP, BJP and Congress are the main force in Uttar Pradesh. Is it a correct understanding of the situation there? In my opinion, despite numerous contradictions and disagreement, I would like to appeal to the people of Uttar Pradesh to vote for Bahin Mayawati to bring the government of Bahujan Samaj Party. I am saying this because I feel SP is losing because of its own issues while Congress may not gain much despite Rahul Gandhi’s hard work. We must not allow BJP to win hence BSP is the only alternative at the moment.

·       * The original conversation was in Hindi. English translation done by Ms Sowmya Sivakumar.