If you admire Dr Ambedkar, then deliver the Constitution in full and annihilate Caste, says Santosh Dass

Santosh Dass MBE, Vice Chair Anti Caste Discrimination Alliance, President, Federation of Ambedkarite and Buddhist Organisations UK

Santosh is a human rights and equality campaigner living in London. She is an ex civil servant and held a number of senior roles at the Department of Health including leading on Better Regulations, Governance and Risk Management. Santosh is one of the leading figures in Campaign to outlaw caste based discrimination in the UK. She has taken up this issue and that of the rising atrocities against Dalits in India at the United Nations Committee for the Elimination of Racial Discrimination. Santosh is the Vice Chair of the Anti-Caste Discrimination Alliance and President of Federation of Ambedkarite and Buddhist Organisations, UK. She is the founder of Caste Watch UK, Anti Caste Discrimination Alliance and IndiaMatters UK. In 2014, Santosh put forward and pursued a proposal for purchasing the 10 King Henry’s Road, the House Dr Baba Saheb Ambedkar lived in between  1921-1922 and turn it into a memorial. The House was finally purchased by the Government of Maharashtra in September 2015. Santosh was awarded an MBE in the Queen’s Birthday Honours for her services to Better Regulation at the Department of Health.

Santosh Dass in conversation with Vidya Bhushan Rawat

What are your initial reactions to the Bharat Bandh organized by various Dalit organisations on 2 April 2018 against the attempt to dilute the SC-ST Prevention of Atrocities Act?

Total admiration! The solidarity and unity of the hundreds of thousands of men and women that day was breathtaking. It takes a lot of courage to come out on the streets and protest. People took to the streets knowing they would face repercussions afterwards – including physical violence and threats to life and limb and livelihoods. Those who died are true martyrs in the cause and challenging the shackles of Caste. That’s how they’ll be remembered.

The 2 April protest was a culmination of the years and years of discrimination, social exclusion, human rights abuses and the erosion of basic rights to an education, healthcare, and employment. And, never forget the frightening abuse of Dalit women and girls. As far as crimes against Dalits are concerned we have the latest data from the National Crime Records Bureau. Between 2006 and 2016, the crime rate against Dalits rose more than eightfold. In 2006, there were 2.4 crimes per 100,000 Dalits. By 2016 it had soared to 20.3.

The Judgment by the Supreme Court is an arrogant, brazen and outrageous attempt by the Indian Government to dilute the legislation. Protests like this one and that of Prakash Ambedkar’s Maharashtra Bandh in January following the violence against Dalits at Bhima Koregaon help to highlight the burning issues that the SC/STs face day-in, day-out.

Looking to the future from this protest and the ones before that, I’m reminded of Babasaheb Ambedkar’s powerful words: “We must stand on our own feet and fight as best as we can for our rights. So carry on your agitation and organize your forces. Power and prestige will come to you through struggle.”

How do you respond to Indian media’s allegation of violence instigated by the Dalits? And not reporting the failure of the state mechanism to protect the interest of the Dalits?

I have access to a few of the Indian television channels in the UK. Most appear to be little else but mouthpieces for the Indian Government spouting the party line. The sight of braying ‘experts’ vying for the camera and shouting each other down is a total switch-off. Discussion and debate goes out the window.

I was appalled at the TV channels’ coverage. Many stations repeated the same ‘bad news’ footage of, say, some car set on fire. It created the impression of hooligan behaviour rather than covering what was, overall, a very peaceful protest on 2 April. Nothing I saw broadcast dwelt on the nine Dalits killed during the protests. What did we see of the sheer numbers of people protesting across India or – and this really got to me – the absence of police protection for those marching in an orderly fashion. Since the protest, there’s been no reporting of police brutalities against Dalits. There’s footage circulating of police officers shamelessly knocking over motorbikes and auto rickshaws in attempts to pin the damage on the protestors – and worse including ‘slapping’ with their hands and long wooden batons. It’s all very disturbing and distressing to watch. I hope people are cataloguing these incidents and police provocations.

On 9 April NDTV saw fit to run the ‘Bhatoora fiasco’ instead of reporting on incidents of Dalits being targeted in UP or Rajasthan or the gang rape of an eight-year-old girl in J&K. Even the UP Government’s and the police authorities’ insensitive attitude towards the Unnae gang-rape survivor was ‘buried’ for many months. The poor girl had to resort to the extreme step of trying to commit suicide outside the UP Chief Minister Yogi Adiyananth’s residence this April to demand that the police at least register the crime. It had taken place back in June 2017! It was only when her father died in custody that the media took an interest. They’ve since been broadcasting images of the MLA implicated in the gang-rape strutting around cockily whilst the poor survivor and her family are under what is essentially house arrest. Where is the Beti Bachao campaign now?

Millions of people in India and around world are sharing news stories about the atrocities and hate crimes faced by Dalits and minorities in India. National and regional Government and the authorities are failing to respond to, or act against corruption and abuses. People are able to see and read about it in real time and form opinions like never before.

What do you think are the reasons of continuous violence against Dalits?

Caste divisions and Caste prejudice are social evils that have existed for thousands of years. It’s a fact that Untouchablity was abolished in the 50s. It’s also fact that people continue to practise the medieval ways of Untouchablity as if nothing ever changed and minds never moved on. This was confirmed in recent phone survey by Social Attitude Research India of 8,065 people. 50 per cent of respondents in urban Rajasthan admitted to practising Untouchability; as did 48 per cent of respondents in urban UP and even 39 per cent of the Delhi respondents. Even if somebody of a Dalit background makes progress, they are regularly reminded that their Caste and descent is inferior. It’s a form of mind control. Huge progress needs to be made on a number of fronts.

Sadly, successive Indian governments and authorities have failed to implement laws or take swift action when atrocities against Dalits have occurred. The current Government is successfully creating divisions. What is required is robust action against the dominant Caste perpetrators violating the human rights of Dalits and minorities. There must be no watering down of the Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act. There needs to be an immediate and transparent investigation under the legislation to prosecute any Government and police officials who are found to have aided and abetted criminals. There needs to be robust implementation of the Special Courts and Exclusive Special Courts mandated in the SC ST Act, 2015 for speedy trials. Government needs to take swift action to deal with the unacceptable shortage of judges that is impacting negatively on access to justice. And of course, media have a big role to play in highlighting the shortfalls.  

What is your opinion on the Supreme Court’s order on the SC/ST Act?

Very alarming. It’s such an unashamed act. For someone who’s worked on the need for clarity of laws that are implementable and enforceable on the ground, I believe the hurdles created by the Supreme Court Judgement for the victims are totally unacceptable. Let’s be clear, the ruling is essentially leaving the fate of a victim in the hands of someone in authority – likely to be so-called upper Caste – who will decide whether the case can even be registered.

Dr Anand Teletumbdeji recently summed up the mess beautifully: “What are the chances of a poor Dalit landless labourer taking recourse to this law? About 75% of the population, especially women and the marginalised, avoid reporting a crime as they feel frustrated and unhappy with the way cops behave with complainants. It is only following pressure from activists that complaints of atrocities get into the police register. Even after the registration of a complaint, it has to pass through prejudicial barriers – police investigation, the indulgence of the prosecution, and the judicial verdict.”

The crux of the matter is that in most of the cases the government officials can easily dismiss the case as false resulting in the penalization of individuals who file a case. It will further discourage the individual from filing the case for the fear of retribution or backlash. Look at the Unnae UP gang rape survivor’s experience of trying to file an FIR with the police. And this is before the recent SC Judgement. Imagine what it would be like in practice now! It beggars belief!

The Bandh was a spontaneous response to a campaign on social media.

Yes. That’s what I heard. Brilliant!

All the laws in India deal with the issue of violation of human rights at the individual level even when we see that the issue of the Dalits and Adivasis are not merely individual relationship but a social disorder which discriminates against them on the basis of their birth. You call it mass violence or mass hatred but it is time to call it hate crime as suggested by noted author Sujatha Gidla. What is your take on it. Will bringing out a specific law on the lines of hate crime be effective ?

I fully agree with Sujatha Gidlaji. In England, Wales, and Scotland we’ve got the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. It makes hateful behavior towards a victim based on the victim’s membership or presumed membership in a racial group or a religious group an aggravation in sentencing for specified crimes. If there were the political will in India, this law could be replicated for Caste-related ‘aggravated crimes’.

What about Caste discrimination in the Britain?

It’s an incontestable fact that when somebody steps off the plane in Manchester or Montreal they don’t leave their Caste back in Mumbai. I borrowed that gem from Lord Eric Avebury, a great champion of social reform, in the House of Lords. Britain’s South Asian population exceeds four million. In the UK we saw very early on that if left unchecked, the profound Caste prejudices keep on continuing to get transplanted and take root here. Meaning, discrimination will be perpetuated.

For nearly 20 years now I’ve been involved with the campaign to outlaw Caste discrimination in the UK with such organisations as the Anti Caste Discrimination Alliance (ACDA), CasteWatchUK, Dalit Solidarity Network, Federation of Ambedkarite and Buddhist Organisations UK (FABOUK) and Voice of Dalit International.

The UK has robust equality of treatment and equality of opportunity laws. Laws we can be justifiably proud of. They are laws that have benefited and protected people in their place of employment and education or when they use public services like health and social care. There are protections on grounds of the colour of someone’s skin whether they’re originally from India, Jamaica, Nigeria, Manchester or Glasgow. There are protections for people on grounds of disability, sexuality and others. Yet if someone is discriminated against or harassed because of their Caste there’s no legislation in place to protect them.

When we invited people to tell us about their experiences of discrimination in the UK, the findings of which we published in our, the ACDA’s 2009 report A hidden Apartheid, two cases out of the many stand out for me in particular. The first was the case of a vulnerable elderly Indian woman in the East Midlands. She had faced discrimination and, as a result, neglect at the hands of her carer. The second had been a young personal secretary in the office of a radio station broadcasting mainly to the Punjabi diaspora. The discrimination in both cases had one feature in common the Caste divide of the people concerned.

The ACDA report was instrumental in securing Section 9(5) a of the Equality Act 2010 inserted at the late stage in the law by the then Labour Government. This gave the relevant Minister a power to outlaw Caste discrimination if a Government-commissioned study found evidence of Caste discrimination. The evidence was there. The National Institute of Economic and Social Research’s 2010 report confirmed Caste discrimination is no different to discrimination on grounds of disability, gender, colour, age or sexuality in the UK. But the Government did nothing but stonewall.

Parliament agreed Government must legislate to outlaw Caste discrimination in April 2013. This didn’t come about just like that. It followed an inspired amendment to the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill (ERR Bill) following an ACDA meeting in November 2012 calling on the Government to act. This meeting was chaired by Lord Eric Avebury. A number of members of both house of Parliament including Baroness Thornton – the Labour Government Minister who had paved the way for legislative power in the 2010 Equality Act attended the meeting. Straight after the meeting Baroness Thornton tabled a very important and inspired amendment to the ERR Bill that was progressing through Parliament at the time. Since April 2013, the Government did all it can to delay implementation of the law.

What’s the latest on the UK Parliament’s direction to outlaw Caste discrimination?

Last year the Government finally launched the long awaited public consultation. Given Parliament expressed direction to legislate in 2013, the consultation should have been about how best to legislate. Instead, we got a significant lack of argument in favour of implementation of the law and a consultation skewed towards a case law option. This was supported with significant omissions and rhetoric - some of which had been peddled by the anti Caste law Hindu lobby. One red herring in the consultation was mentioning the Tirkey v Chandhok Employment Tribunal (ET) case as a way of getting legal justice. This case law offers no potential protection for victims of ‘everyday’ discrimination based on Caste. Furthermore, Government contradicted itself and acknowledged that that judgment was not a definitive assessment because each claim would need to show discrimination based on the claimant’s descent. That’s a legal minefield. Many features of Caste aren’t covered by descent. An ET hardly offers redress to a patient whose carer neglects them on Caste grounds. Furthermore, discrimination laws are not just about providing legal justice. They’re about prevention and changing behaviours too. The recent ET hasn’t changed the behaviours in the case of woman being abused on the factory floor on Caste grounds. Only when we have the clarity of law, will we have structures for redress that have preventative effects and educational benefits people of all Castes. The law would work in both directions. In the longer term this will help improve community cohesion. Continuing the status quo can only reinforce existing Caste consciousness and bias, and act as propaganda for the perpetuation of Caste and its heinous traditional prejudices.

The consultation closed in September 2017. They’ve had over 16,000 responses. The Government’s own independent Equality and Human Rights Commission has called for implementation of the law in response to the consultation that they recently shared with me. The Government said it would provide a response to the consultation in early 2018. We’re not holding our breath they’ll do the right thing. If they don’t, the campaign will continue!

Has the UK government surrendered to the Hindu right wing on the Caste law? Is it more with business interests in India?

Without a doubt, they’re lobbying hard to halt the outlawing of Caste discrimination in this country. They’ve voiced their opposition via their MPs in Parliament in private and public. They’ve peddled lots of misinformation about the impact of the law. They’ve created smokescreens. They’ve scare-mongered. They’ve denied that there could even be such a thing as Caste discrimination! Well, they would say that, wouldn’t they? And, no surprise, those opposing the law have seen fit to stoop to personal vilification and insults. It’s what social media was invented for, right?

A lot of it is down to catching or guaranteeing votes and post-Brexit business deals with India. Successive Governments since 2010 including Mrs Theresa May’s have shown they’re influenced by religious factions on both those counts. Indeed Caste law featured heavily as an issue in both of the last two General Elections. For example, the body representing Hindu temples openly directed their communities to vote for the Conservative Party. Why? Because it believed that party wouldn’t legislate against Caste discrimination. By listening to the opposition to the Caste struggle is tantamount to saying, ‘Let’s not introduce legislation against race, disability or gender discrimination. Some faction might get huffy about it if they can’t perpetuate their old ways.’

 

What role do you see for the Indian diaspora in the Western World, particularly UK, USA and Canada towards the issues of the Dalits and marginalized in India. Hindu Council in UK and USA has been opposed to anything that ‘defames’ India?

I can speak for the UK position. I’m a member of the second-generation Indian diaspora living in the UK. My family still has links with family in India. Through my work on equality and Dalit issues here in the UK I have interacted with activists and NGOs working in this country, in India and around the world. We have a duty to highlight and raise issues in the media and other forums that are not in keeping with the values of equality and human rights. There must be no compromise in this regard. This does not make us anti-National! Caste should be recognised as a root cause of the misery of millions of Dalits. It’s the root cause of trafficking, of modern day slavery and poverty. Unless we raise the profile of the oppressed Dalits, nothing will change.

You have been very active with the Human Rights groups, anti-Caste discrimination organisations apart from Ambedkarite organisations. Do you think they can work together on a common agenda or you feel no need of it? Has there been any effort in this direction?

Absolutely. We have more in common than what divides us. There is a common platform from which we can all make a difference and have made a difference. This includes the many joint statements we have submitted on issues including about atrocities against Dalits and the need to outlaw Caste discrimination in the UK. We have stood shoulder to shoulder in public protests.

How do you find the issue of Women being addressed in the organizational structures of the various organisations in the diaspora?

I live in a patriarchal community. We have a generation of leaders in the religious institutions who do not surrender their executive positions to women – no matter how exceptional they are. They are quick to use women to do the work and take the credit. The same can be said of some NGOs. That said I have been able to make huge difference as the President of FABOUK and as a Vice Chair of ACDA. Women have so much to offer. Sometimes raising this issue falls on deaf ears but we must persist!

You have participated in the meetings of UN Committee for Elimination of Racial Discrimination (UN CERD) in and presented reports. Do you think that UN platform can be effective in dealing with the Caste discrimination issue?

Yes I did in 2016 and 2017. And my colleagues at the ACDA also did so in 2011 to push for the implementation of the 2010 law on Caste. UN CERD is a very useful platform because it helps internationalize issues and the Committee makes recommendations. For example I was able to highlight at a UN meeting the erosion of fundamental rights of freedom of speech and expression guaranteed in India’s Constitution; the plight of those who speak up for human rights and justice and call the Government to account on the social evils of Caste related atrocities and discrimination persecution, incarceration, and being labelled anti-National. I was able to use Mr Chandrasekhar Ravan, Soni Suri, Professor Siababa, Professor Kancha Illaiah Shepherd and Gauri Lankesh as examples. I was able to highlight incidents of Caste-related violence and social exclusion that includes the Saharanpur UP violence against Dalits. I was able raise the impact of open coalmining in Chhattisgarh India that’s causing mass relocation of tribal and Adivasi people that has to be seen as nothing short of ethnic cleansing.

One area I have continued to highlight is the violence against women in India and the experience of Dalit girls and women seeking justice in cases of rape. I was able to highlight recently the Human Rights Watch’s 2017 report “Everyone Blames Me - Barriers to justice and support for sexual assault survivors in India”. We have chilling examples of local village Councils deterring women and girls from reporting cases of rape by a higher a Caste men or gang rapes; and of police delaying, or not even registering the First Incident Report. Some girls and women are further subjected to the humiliating two finger intimate examination by doctors. No civilized society should allow this abhorrent practice.

The recent gang-rapes of the 8 year-old in J&K and the minor in UP are a fraction of what’s really happening to some girls and women in India. It breaks my heart that they and their families are not getting the justice they deserve.

You did a lot of work in making the Ambedkar memorial a reality in London. It is historical and we are proud of the initiative taken by you in FABO. What is the status of it today ? How satisfied are you with the things happening there ?

Thank you. To be honest it’s a dream come true. Everything I wanted for the house and more has been delivered with thanks to Mr Badoleji at the Government of Maharashtra. I also thank Mr R K Gaikwadji, Mr Ramesh Katkeji in Mumbai, Mr Arun Kumarji, Mr Gautamji, Mr Ken Hunt in the UK, and Mr Sunil Kumarji at the India High Commission in the UK for their unflinching support. Of course there were others who lobbied for the House once I had submitted my proposal to GOM.

Dr Ambedkar’s short biography in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography lists him as one of the men and women who have shaped British history and culture. This demonstrates his standing in the UK. 10 King Henry’s Road is highly important for followers of Dr Ambedkar and anyone who is interested in equality and human rights because it marks an important period in his life.

The Ambedkar House London has now been fully refurbished. It already has a The Blue Plaque on the outside of it. At the time of purchase in September 2015, the house was in total disrepair. Since then it’s been developed and refurbished. For example, the basement flat rooms have been merged into one; it’s had external repairs including repointing of bricks and making safe the front garden; it’s been rewired for electricity, re-decorated retaining the original features including fireplaces, ceiling roses and coving, wood staircase. A conservatory has been installed and the garden’s been landscaped.  

We also now have a lovely library. Babasahab left a huge body of writings spanning forty years and covering a variety of subjects, amongst them history, economics, anthropology, politics philosophy and law. These writings are proof-positive of his prowess, his intellectual rigour and his clarity of thought. He got to the root of the problems that his community and the new nation were facing. In a culture that is largely oral, leaving so much written work – speeches, journals, books – are his gift not only to subsequent generations of Indians but also to anyone anywhere with an interest in human rights, the theory and practice of equal treatment issues and civil rights movements. We hope to have hard copies of Dr Ambedkar’s works sitting on the shelves soon!

I’ve been honoured to be a member of the Ambedkar Memorial Advisory Committee Mr Badoleji set up. It’s allowed me shape the house as I set out in my proposal to the Government of Maharashtra in 2014. I’ve been very hands-on with selecting the furniture and fittings and the redevelopment.

The house is a wonderful memorial to Dr Ambedkar and his remarkable legacy to the cause of social justice and social reform. I look forward to many people taking the opportunity to visit it  - especially UK school children – and learning about the Father of the nation and his extraordinary achievements.

What is the future of India ? Do you think political will here to deal with the issue of Caste discrimination and untouchability. What would you suggest to activists, intellectuals and political parties in India particularly to those who claim to follow Baba Saheb Ambedkar.

It’s not enough to admire Babasaheb Ambedkar, say Jai Bhim or garland his statues around the globe. Dr Ambedkar was one of the finest academics of his generation, a prolific writer, a social reformer, an outstanding economist, an empowerer of women in India, and a nation builder. His initiatives as India’s Labour minister led to 8-hour working days – down from 14 hours a day. He was instrumental in the introduction of the Minimum Wages Act. Those are policies that the Trade Unions here in the UK would have been proud of. Those who value justice and equality must have the will and courage to follow his example and fight for the things he gave his life for.

I say to those in positions of power or able to influence, if you admire Dr Ambedkar, then deliver the Constitution in full and annihilate Caste. Implement and enforce the laws and funds designed to protect and uplift those who have been violated and marginalized for thousands of years.  Provide swift and robust action against the dominant Caste perpetrators violating the human rights of Dalits and minorities. Don’t water down Scheduled Castes and the Scheduled Tribes (Prevention of Atrocities) Act. Take swift action to deal with the unacceptable shortage of judges that is impacting negatively on access to justice. Provide good education and healthcare and jobs.

The SC/ST legislation that is being watered down is helping social boycott victims challenge community corrupt and corrupting practices. The medial justice system, the local Panchayats must go!

Finally, don’t just share or chant slogans like Beti Bachao. Save, educate, protect, and empower all girls and women in India. They have a lot offer.

Caste forces did everything to defeat me in counsellor's election : Bishan Dass Bains

Conversation

Upper caste Hindus and Jat Sikhs did every effort to defeat me in my election to Wolverhampton Council :  Bishan Dass Bains, former Mayor Wolverhampton

Bishan Dass Bains is the first South Asian Mayor of Wolverhampton in United Kingdom elected at Labour Party ticket in November 1985. A staunch Ambedkarite Bains Saheb migrated to England in 1963 in search of a livelihood as well as to pursue further education. His life journey is that of struggle and determination. As an Ambedkarite he participated in various movement under the Republican Party of Great Britain too in the beginning but slowly he realised that he would serve his people better under the mainstream political parties in UK and Labour came as a natural choice for him as it was the party with socialist principles, supporting migrants as well as people who faced different kinds of discrimination. Bains succeeded in giving a new dynamics to his Mayoral position. He refused to follow the traditional way of the inauguration which was the domain of local church. Instead, he organised a local civil reception. His book ‘Pride vs Prejudice’ reflect the discrimination that he faced on the caste basis and explain in details as how the Jat Sikhs and caste Hindus did their best to defeat him in elections. This important conversation reveals how the caste minds have crossed overseas too and infected everyone there. Bains Saheb is not in active politics but Wolverhampton does not leave him and has been provided with the title ‘Alderman’ which is confirmed by the city council. He is active in strengthening Ambedkarite Buddhist movement in UK and India. Here is Bishan Dass Bains in conversation with Vidya Bhushan Rawat.

VB: When did you arrive in UK ? What was the reason of your coming here.  I mean what were your parents and where were they living in Punjab. Please also tell us about your education? Did you face any kind of discrimination at your home due to your caste ? What were your first impressions about England?

BDB: I was born and brought up in a small remote village Shaffipur, in northern state of Punjab India. The village had no shop, school, no health provisions and no community facility or religious place for people to get to gather.  The education was not an important part of their life. Consequently, 99% habitants were backward, illiterate, orthodox and superstitious. The village was epitomized thousands of villages in India where people were and still destined to born in poverty, live in poverty and died in poverty. I was second of my parent’s ten children. After going through a great deal of hardship in my early life, walking five miles to primary and high schools and traveling twenty miles to my college, I completed my graduation in 1963. The caste prejudice was wide open at every level of life as such upper caste Jat Sikhs will not socially  mix or dine to gather with SC,OBC and at school some of the teacher will not eat anything  touched by children from lower castes. I remember, in 1959 organising two months strike against caste prejudice at school. I was the first person from my village to educate to a degree level and it was a matter of pride for the whole family. They were not very happy about my idea of going abroad but reluctantly agreed to support me. While I was getting ready and making preparation to migrate to UK, my parents organised my marriage with Ram Piari, a girl from a neighbouring village. I came to UK.in 1963 for further education. After arriving here in England I have to make very difficult choice between pursuing my ambition for further education or to earn money to support my family back in India, and I choose the second option.

VB:  Your arrival in UK too has an interesting journey. Could you narrate that how did you reach the place you were supposed to stay?

BDB: My journey from home to England was very interesting. It was not easy to leave behind all, the family, friends and relatives, knowing that you are not going to see them for an unspecifiable time. It was for the first time that I travelled that far and by air. The whole journey from home to New Delhi, Mumbai and Heathrow was the most frightening experience of my life. I reached Heathrow airport at about 5 p.m. and after going through all the immigration and custom check-up, I came out of airport building and started looking eagerly for someone I know or had come to receive me. I was very disappointed and frightened to think about where to go now. I started searching my pockets and eventually found an address of a distance relative to whom I had never met. He was living in Wolverhampton, and I had no idea how far this place was? There were a number of unauthorised taxi drivers always plying for innocent new comer people like me. One of them was very quick to pick me up and asked me if I want a taxi, and asked him, how much it will be for Wolverhampton. He replied, don’t worry about the fare and quickly asked me to sit in the taxi. He picked up five and bundled us all six in his car and started driving. God know where he was going to take us to. It was now dark, cold and raining, hardly could I see anything outside. He took us to different towns and cities and dropped one by one at various places. I was the last one to reach at about 9.30 in Wolverhampton. The taxi driver knocked at door of a dimly lit terraced house in Lesley road Wolverhampton. A short chubby woman reluctantly half opened the door and peeped outside in dismay. The taxi driver said, madam you have visitor from India. She was taken aback, looked at a man standing in front of her, and said “what”? “A visitor – your relative from India, he replied. The lady of the house was looking confused and shaky. I opened the door and came out of the car with my shoulder bag hanging on one side. I said Namaste Bhabhi ji, she looked at me still confused and speechless. I took some courage to slide into the house and the taxi driver carried my suitcase inside the house. From the outset it looks nothing less than a force entry into a house of a stranger.

VB: What influenced you to be part of Baba Saheb's ideology? Was it from student times or at the later stage of your career? It would be good if you share in details.  You mentioned that you were part of the Republican Party in UK. You had several protest against discrimination against Dalits. Could you please explain it to us was when did you become member and what were the kind of activities that you took during this phase

BDB: I was always active with student union. During early sixties, there was a very limited Asian media in England. There was one Indian grocery shop used to sell “Blitz” weekly and a friend of mine was having “Bheem  Patrika” by post from India. I was passionately keen in reading both the papers. The All India Republican Party launched an agitation in 1964, against atrocities against down trodden masses of India and presented a charter of demands for the uplift of their living status. During the agitation more than 250000 people nationwide were arrested to jails and thirteen people became martyrs due to police brutality.

This agitation in India was a turning point in my life. I talk to some friends, organised meetings, made some collection and sent some financial support to the Republic Party Punjab branch. Then following on from there we decided to form a Republic Group of Great Britain and increased our membership all over England. I acted as convenor, secretary and chair for the group for several years. In those days, there were no computers, IT, telephone lines and type writers. I used to send dozens hand written notices for the meeting and used to get leaflets cyclostyled at the Labour Part offices.  The main purpose of the Group was to provide some financial and moral support to the Republican Party and people working for Baba Sahib’s mission in India. The Group done a great of ground work during sixties, organised meetings in different towns and cities, recruit membership, organise public meetings, and protest marches in London against inequality and caste prejudice in India.

VB: What were your reasons of leaving the Republican or India centric groups or parties? Were there ideological differences or you something else?

BDB: The civil war in All India Republic Party during second part of sixties had dire consequences weakening the roots of Baba Sahib’s mission. The party badly disintegrated and the leadership abandoned the sinking ship. Consequently, the infighting in RPI badly polluted the supporting organisations like Republican Group of GB, later the activities of the group gradually weakened and had to be abandoned.

VB: Interesting to learn that you joined politics later and that too labor party.  Was there anything specific in your joining labor? When was it?

BDB: Within a short period of coming to UK.I became active with Ravidass Dharmak Sabha, Anti Nazi League and Community Relations Council and of course Republican Group of Great Britain. I come cross many people including local leaders of the Labour party, who encouraged me to join the party. Historically the Labour Party is the bi-product of the trade union moment started after the second war and secondly it was the Labour Party government who granted independence to India. There were not a great deal of ideological differences between the socialist policies of the Labour party and the mission of Baba Sahib based upon equality, liberty and social justice.  The leaders of the local Labour Party persuaded me to join the party in 1968 and eventually asked me to contest local elections in 1973. In 1975, the party selected me to contest a bi-election from a so call safe Labour seat which I won with a comfortable majority.

VB: What kind of discrimination that you found in Britain in terms of RACIAL & CASTE DISCRIMINATION.

BDB: The British society was torn apart between black and whites as the racial prejudice and colour bar had reached its peak during the years of sixties and seventies. There were many pubs and clubs which had discretions to exclude black customers and it was not unusual to see a notice on their windows saying, ‘’Blacks and Asians are not allowed”. I came across this kind of situation in early days. Not only that, the new-comers were destined to live in squalors in run down inner city areas. They were made to work on dirty, dusty and hot jobs nobody wants to do. I was no exception to these prevailing conditions and was subjected to racial prejudice at work.

VB: How did the labor decide to nominate you for the Mayor of Wolverhampton? Who were the other contenders? Did you face any racial prejudices?

BDB: The 1979 election was the most memorable episode in the history of my political career in England. The Indian Workers Association, mainly lead and dominated by Punjabi Jat Sikhs, was a very strong national organisation during the period of sixties and seventies. They found it extremely difficult to digest and compromise with the facts that a person from a lower caste can be an elected member of the council. Subsequently, the dirty Indian politics of caste prejudice and religious hatred reared its head to undermine my position as an elected member of the council. They left no stone unturned to get me deselected by the Labour Party and replaced me with one from their own caste. After their failed attempts, they fielded a most reputable person the president of the Indian Workers Association, against me. During the election they started a smear campaign to tarnish my name and discredit my public reputation. They had army of workers roaming streets of my constituency all day, harassing and intimidating residents, printing and distributing literature. It was one of the most difficult elections as campaign as I have to overcome a multiple of discrimination and prejudice. In addition to Indian caste & religious prejudice, there was a British National Party (far right wing organisation) and other two parties slightly less racial. In the end with solid support from the Pakistani community, some indigenous and others, I managed to won the seat with an increased majority.

VB: We heard that during the election campaign the upper caste Hindus and Sikhs campaigned against you. Is it true? Did you true to reach them? Why did they oppose any Indian for such a prestigious position?

BDB: The local Labour Party had an established custom and practice for the past many years to elect a Mayoral candidate for the ensuing year. At a special meeting two names were proposed and secret voting taken, according to custom and practice the winner of the contest become the candidate for the following year, and the runner up is usually had the nomination and elected the following year.

I like to mention here that I was the only non-white out of sixty elected members of the council for many years, and the rest of fifty nine were all indigenous whites. In the beginning I was not interested at all to become the Mayor of the city. But there were some left wing councillors who wanted me to bid for my right. My name was dully proposed and seconded continuously for two constructive years and I lost the contest for both times. It means the established custom and practices which were being followed up over the past many years were violated for no reason other than underlying racial prejudice. Not only that, it was contrary to the policy of equality of opportunity of the national Labour Party. This situation left me with no option but to seriously consider my position in both terms as an elected member of the council and as a member of the party. I decided not to walk away quietly but to fight back and publically expose their behaviour of racial prejudice. I decided to bring the whole truth of underlying racial prejudice in the Labour Party into public domain.

Now it was not a question of getting the nomination for mayoralty but to fight back for equality of opportunity and justice. I decided to issue a press statement, high lighting the underlying racial discrimination within the Labour Party. It was a very controversial, of course a courageous move which attracted a great deal of public support for me and contrarily huge discontentment amongst my fellow Labour councillors. . I was served with a show cause notice and meeting with the high command leadership. I justify my actions at the meeting and it was decided to harmonise mutual relations amongst elected members of the Labour Party.

VB: And you won the historical battle? The first Asian for becoming Mayor of this town? Please narrate the entire event for us. When was it exactly and how did things happen?

BDB: It was for the third time lucky in 1985 I won the contest to become a candidate for Mayoralty for the year 1986/87. After the nomination the first and the foremost thing I did was to declare that I shall not organise a traditional Civic – Sunday and secondly I will not appoint my Christian Chaplin for any prayer at the beginning of every council meeting. This move generated a great deal of controversy. All the opposition parties and leaders of Christian Churches ganged up against me and threatened boycott and no co-operation during my year of mayoralty.

VB: One of the most remarkable things was that you change the entire political discourse here as well as the tradition of going to Church with all fanfare. So you broke the traditional protocol if I may say so when you took oath of Mayor. What was the event and how did you decide not to follow the official protocol.  Were there opposition to it?

BDB;I took over the office of Mayor in May 1986, and within few months I manage to harmonise my relations with all the different communities living here in Wolverhampton. I became a focus of attention all over the country as I was the first Indian born Mayor in England. I had many invitations to speak at different functions and on different subjects from all over the country. I attended 2300 functions and meetings in one year and delivered Baba Sahib’s message of EQUALITY LIBERT AND SOCIAL JUSTICE everywhere I go. I and my wife Ram Piari who took over the gracious role of the Mayoress, were well received by people from all denominations except Sikh temples.

VB: Wolverhampton is mini Asia like Birmingham. I call it undivided India. How are your relations with friends from other nationalities like Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka ? I mean does national identities ever affected your warmth?

BDB: Now living and working here with the, and for the community, over the past many years, I have very good relations with people from many differing denominations. There many Gurudwaras, Hindu Temples, Churches and other religious places regularly inviting me to their special functions and I enjoy the highest regards from all of them.  

   

VB: What were the main achievements that you attribute to your Mayoral period?

BDB: There are a number of memorable achievements, of which I am proud to have the credits for as such:-  

A…..What can be a most memorable thing for an untouchable person to attain the highest post of number one citizen of the town in a country which virtually ruled the whole world.

B…..Many people consider me and my year of Mayoralty as an inspiration role model for younger generations to encourage them to participate into mainstream organisations.

C…..The most important thing, is to remember was that where ever I go or spoken about, I always carry the message and preaching of equality, liberty, fraternity, and social justice the main pivot of Baba Sahib’s mission.

VB: What are you doing now after your retirement from politics? 

BDB: As you are aware that now I have decided to retire from the council but they still need me off and on, and appointed me an honorary Alderman which means I still have some optional civic responsibilities. Now I am heavily engaged in harmonising relations and creating an atmosphere of mutual understandings and unity amongst Ambedkarites living here in UK.

When we started the Ambedkarite movement in early sixties, there were only few of us but we were well organised and united. Now we have a large number of Ambedkarites and organisations in different towns and cities but they are working in total isolation from each other. The Ambedkarites over the years have achieved great many things but they could have done lot more by working together under a well organised central body.

VB: How do you describe people claiming Baba Saheb’s to work for Baba Saheb’s vision too and glorifying to their traditional identities too.

BDB: My view in regard to maintaining the traditional identities and still claiming to be Ambedkarites. Baba Sahib was fully aware about the back grounds and history of untouchables divided in to thousands of castes and sub castes they had faith and worship their local deities. Baba Sahib’s advocacy for conversion to Buddhism was for two reasons i, e, firstly to get rid of the slavery of Hinduism, secondly to bring unification amongst down trodden masses of India.

Those who stick to their traditional faith and still claim to be the followers of Baba Sahib, in my opinion, their loyalty to the mission is a marriage of convenience and they are no better than fanatic Hindus.

VB: How do we make basic human rights issues as part of Ambedkarite movement? Is it not time to come out of the religious structure and focus on civil and political rights of the people ?

BDB: In western world people less care about religion and devote their energy more for commodities of daily life such as ROTI, CAPRA and MAKAN. A large number of churches have closed and the rest of them are struggling for survival. In the case of India the situation is totally opposite, as more and more religious establishments are mushrooming day by day and they are not short of money. As there are many Muslim countries are indirectly run by fanatic Mullahs similarly India have been and now being run by Shankaracharyas and Hindu priests.

That is why Baba Sahib said that India is a country where politics and religion go side by side supporting each other. He urged down trodden people to grab as much as possible political power to utilize for the benefit of those in need. The Ambedkarites and down trodden people of India must come out of their Hindu enclaves and strengthen their bonds into national unification. They can become a strong national force capable to not only protect their human rights but also the strong contender to rule the country. 

  

VB: The British government is not honoring the commitment made in Parliament when they passed equality law. What is the biggest hurdle in its implementation? Do you think that after BJP's coming to power in India; the Hindu Right wing has got strengthened in UK and is thwarting every effort to implement the law?

BDB: The campaign to include caste discrimination into Human Rights & Equality Act 2010 has been going on over the past several years. But the year of 2015 marked the turning point in this regards when the British government introduce the bill in the parliament. The bill had gone through both houses of the parliament after all odds but the implementation was up held due to pressure from right wing Hindu as well as Sikh organisations in UK.  There is a great deal of scepticism that it cannot possibly happen without a very high profile interference and collaboration by the BJP government of India. It is worth mentioning here that out of 1.5m. Indian population in UK, Hindus & Sikhs combined are the second biggest vote bank which play a significance roll to influence the election results. During 2015 UK general elections, a Sikh member of the parliament not only repeatedly voted against the bill but also organised very high profile visits for  David Cameron the Tory leader and the prime minister, to Golden Temple in Amritsar & Bala Ji Hindu Temple, London the biggest in UK.

Those opposing the legislation stated that caste system does not exist in UK. But the fear lurks in their mind that the implications will be far beyond the boundaries of UK. The campaign to reintroduce the Bill is still going on and I am sure that in the end the common sense will prevail and the victory will be ours. As I have mentioned in my book Pride VS Prejudice that the bill to introduce changes had gone through the both houses of British parliament but the implementation was upheld due to pressure from both the Hindu and Sikh fanatic organisations. The majority of pro- legislation people think that there is pressure from BJP government in addition to local lobbying in UK.

VB:  What should be an ideal Ambedkarite in your opinion? What kind of political thoughts and socio-cultural behavior is expected of an Ambedkarite?

BDB: Dr. Ambedkar was a great patriot and he wanted to see independent India a secular democratic republic state. For him, a transfer of political power in an independent India was not sufficient unless it is supported by economic and social democracy. We are reminded of Baba Sahib’s speech to constitutional assembly on 25th.Nov.1949 that on 26th.Jan.1950 we are going to enter in to a life of contradiction where in politics we will have equality and in social and economic life we will have inequality. We must remove this contradiction as earliest as possible.

He was a strong advocate of human rights as such equality, liberty and social justice, which are the fundamental principles of modern civilised society. To achieve all this he lead the down trodden masses of India to come out of enclaves of Hinduism and secondly to take as much as possible control of political power. The Poona Pact and conversion in to Buddhism are two historical examples of his struggle to achieve human dignity and equal rights for all.

VB: You got the title Alderman recently. Could you share with us what is it and why is it given?

BDB: ALDERMAN is an honorary title confirmed by the city council Wolverhampton. The council, under old custom and practice, can appoint a person an Alderman in recognition of  his length and quality of public services..